It's more like this: The RIAA does *not* have infinite money. What this whole ordeal will do is strain those resources. Even more directly, the RIAA will only sue when they think they can make money from it. In reality, the money isn't to be made by gaining cash from downloaders. It's about ending the market share bleeding they're currently suffering. Until they can chase people away from the indie labels and DIY ethic, the RIAA will keep suing. That is, unless this tactic works... If it does, the RIAA would have to invest too much in its shock and awe campaign.

In short, if you want to strike a blow against the RIAA, buy an independently created record. Go see your local music scene. Drink PBR at a basement show. Play your own stuff in the subway.

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

i was with you until you mentioned pbr.

pbr=owned by miller brewing.

why is everything all indie and diy proper when it comes to music and art, but when it comes to food and drink, those ethics go out the window?

i'm not saying i'm more or less diy than the next org'er, but does anyone else have a problem with the ethics of diy not transferring from art/music over to other things?

i'm seriously not trolling, i'd love to have a decent discourse about this...



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Banal242 (January 30, 2008)

What's an ethical cheap beer?

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dlangl4 (January 30, 2008)

A cheap local brew I guess, if you can find one.

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Banal242 (January 30, 2008)

Yeah, I was looking more for specifics. I can find "ethical" beer but I can't afford to drink 4 or 5 of them at a show.

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dlangl4 (January 30, 2008)

Fuck I have no clue. Show beer prices are too expensive for me in the first place. I don't have a problem with corporate beer even...so long as it's not made in a sweatshop or people get raped in the brewing process or whatever.

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TheeValiantRA3 (January 30, 2008)

although "Brewed with the blood of raped virgins" would be an interesting market pitch.

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dlangl4 (January 30, 2008)

Fuck, I need to read the entire thread before posting.

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

why's it gotta be cheap?

if riaa labels started putting out $1 albums, would that be ok to buy?

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Banal242 (January 30, 2008)

Um . . . yes.

I buy my music.

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

I see your point. Its expensive being ethical sometimes, especially with food. For instance i'd much rather pay a bit more for a well looked after chicken than a battery one. Over here in the UK chickens are cheaper by the pound than dog food!!

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

I see your point. Its expensive being ethical sometimes, especially with food. For instance i'd much rather pay a bit more for a well looked after chicken than a battery one. Over here in the UK chickens are cheaper by the pound than dog food!!

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Banal242 (January 30, 2008)

Like all great debates, there is a Cat and Girl comic for this situation.

http://catandgirl.com./view.php?loc=214

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

not bad. pretty close to a conversation i had recently about the profluence of vegan products on the market, food or otherwise. their awesomeness just contributes to consumerism, which in some minds, is counter to the point of being vegan anyway...

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fallingupwards84 (January 30, 2008)

its gotta be cheap because i'm broke as shit

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

First of all, i've never seen that comic before, so cheers for that that person.

Here's another Q then: Does the fact that a large number of people can't buy ethically eradicate the possibility of positive consumer power? In theory consumers could bring down whole corps simpy buy not buying their shit, but consumers can't consume in the way that would bring that about. Basically what i'm asking in a really long winded way is are we all just fucked?

StuckInBielers

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fallingupwards84 (January 30, 2008)

yep, we're all fucked, so lets get drunkj

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sugarfull (January 30, 2008)

Robotussin, a real man's beer. One bottle should do the trick.

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655321 (January 30, 2008)

I see where you're going and if a micro or local brewery can brew a beer with the same quality to price ratio as PBR, High Life or, most importantly, Rainier, than I will be more than happy to give my money to the DIY brewer. Until then, and although although I enjoy micro brews, ales and the like, much much more than shitty domestic beer, I will choose to buy 2 or 3 tall boys instead of one 12 ounce IPA.

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655321 (January 30, 2008)

... that is while out at a show, I choose the cheap beer because it is signifiantly cheaper. If I'm drinking at home its micro or craft brew all the way

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

so, the politics are important only when it's cheap? or when you're at a show?

i realize the implications of this, and bars/clubs being hip to the willingness of people who are true to their beliefs (heh, true for life as it were...) to pay whatever it costs, and as a result, microbrews costing twice or more as much as pbrs or whatever...that sucks.



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ElVaquero (January 30, 2008)

Yeah I was going to offer Rainier as a cheap local alternative but apparently it's owned by Pabst (which is owned by Miller)

So High Life, PBR, and Rainier are all Miller... fine fuck it those are my three favorite cheap beers

and Miller Lite is easily my least favorite.

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Dante3000 (rich) (January 30, 2008)

I don't know if this is serious or not but I absolutely agree. I hate going to fucking tiny shows and seeing these kids with clothes held together by floss who haven't showered or worked in years and preach anarchy and death to corporate America but somehow manage to have sidekicks, drink malt liquor and smoke cigarettes. I guess the only cool corporations are the ones that sell harmful products.

I know these are scene kids who don't really have interest in change or don't really have a plan for that change, but it bothers me nonetheless. If you're going to call me a fucking tool for wearing slacks and a tie and working for a non-profit at least realize the irony in your stance.
[/ rant ].
-Dante
Sorry.

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Thus_Spoke_Sean (January 30, 2008)

no, no, that was good. i work an office job too, and feel the same way.

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dlangl4 (January 30, 2008)

People used to say things like that to me at shows also. No matter where I'm at, I wear completely plain clothes - jeans, solid color shirt w/ no advertisements, regular shoes, no weird hair. Yet the people decked out in Wal Mart "vintage" shirts and vans say I'm the poser.

This sort of thing doesn't bother me though. I think it's funny walking advertisements call me those things.

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655321 (January 30, 2008)

Completely agree. It doesn't bother me either and its funny to watch old Clash, Misfits, Black Flag, etc videos and there's maybe one dude in the crowd with a mohawk. The rest of the kids are dressed like you described yourself - plain. In fact there are more kids with polo shirts and button up shirts than there are with dyed hair, etc.

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

What non-profit do you work for?

I know what you mean, it's basically a matter of walking the walk/talking the talk. For many it's just an image based competition. The most annoying thing i find is when people try so hard to find the chink in your armour and plunge the sword in. You could live a perfectly balanced ethical life but they'll try and find something to call you on. Normally i think its just to make them feel better about doing fuck all. For them if your not living on the street your a hypocrite.

This is StuckInBielers by the way not 'Someone'.Don't know whats up with that.

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Thus_Spoke_Sean (January 30, 2008)

mainly: i'm poor. PBR usually happens to be the only beer i can purchase when i go out to drink.

if i am going to just get one beer, than I will always, always get something 'good' and now that you have raised this point, will try for a mirco. But if im looking to buy a few, i have to go with the cheep stuff.

also, if i could find a lite micro brew that would be another thing. if i am going to be drink more than a six pack, id rather not have be really heavy.

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ElVaquero (January 30, 2008)

Yeah, the microbrew situation in America is frustrating as fuck. They basically only ever produce ales and all the major beers are shitty lagers. If I want a good lager I have to buy something Mexican, Indian or Japanese. There's no compromise but fuck it, I'll enjoy my PBR and Tecates 6 nights out of the week and have a heavy microbrew ale that 7th night.

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Wentz_Equals_Death (January 30, 2008)
maybe it's ...

people are empowered by music and art because it's a somewhat accessible world in which they feel they have control over their lives (see: DIY). with food, clothing, beer, etc, it can be harder to seek out and wrap your head around a culture of ethical production, so maybe it's like a "can't beat em, join em" situation. conAgra owns you. music is a far more entertaining way to feel like a part of something than by eating soyrizo burritos.

or maybe, the traditional "rebel without a cause" is a reality and the punks are just that. the rebels with causes aren't at the show, they're at the farm or the picket line or whatever. in the end, you have to do what you are passionate about, and it's hard to be passionate about too much. those who live for pure music might not live for so-called pure beer or pure food or pure politics etc. the

show rest of commentmaybe it's ...

people are empowered by music and art because it's a somewhat accessible world in which they feel they have control over their lives (see: DIY). with food, clothing, beer, etc, it can be harder to seek out and wrap your head around a culture of ethical production, so maybe it's like a "can't beat em, join em" situation. conAgra owns you. music is a far more entertaining way to feel like a part of something than by eating soyrizo burritos.

or maybe, the traditional "rebel without a cause" is a reality and the punks are just that. the rebels with causes aren't at the show, they're at the farm or the picket line or whatever. in the end, you have to do what you are passionate about, and it's hard to be passionate about too much. those who live for pure music might not live for so-called pure beer or pure food or pure politics etc. the music ends up being what matters most to those types.

i like pbr and i am eating cheese-flavored sunchips - i'm not proud. i do however put lots of effort into recycling and waste control; you pick your battles.
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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)
i like how your entire post was summed up (quite nicely, i might add) by those last three words.

i guess that's what it boils down, to, too.

i also find it interesting that everyone's talking about drinking cheap beers vs microbrews, etc...and no one...not one person so far, has mentioned homebrewing. granted, so far it's drinking at shows (we're talking about), but when it comes to cheap beer, it doesn't get much cheaper--or better--than homebrew.

again, W_E_D, it comes down to picking one's battles...but the same argument i just made about beer vs records could be made for clothing vs records, transportation (bikes vs public transport vs cars, etc), just about anything where you rely on someone/come corp for a good or a service, you could do it yourself, but we each gotta figure out how much the stickin-it-to-the-corporation-hassle is worth..

show rest of commenti like how your entire post was summed up (quite nicely, i might add) by those last three words.

i guess that's what it boils down, to, too.

i also find it interesting that everyone's talking about drinking cheap beers vs microbrews, etc...and no one...not one person so far, has mentioned homebrewing. granted, so far it's drinking at shows (we're talking about), but when it comes to cheap beer, it doesn't get much cheaper--or better--than homebrew.

again, W_E_D, it comes down to picking one's battles...but the same argument i just made about beer vs records could be made for clothing vs records, transportation (bikes vs public transport vs cars, etc), just about anything where you rely on someone/come corp for a good or a service, you could do it yourself, but we each gotta figure out how much the stickin-it-to-the-corporation-hassle is worth...

good discussion, eh'body! thanks!



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doki (January 30, 2008)

I live in Aust and most people in here I know are crusty kids or those gutter kids, they just live with the idea of freedom, that am gonna do whatever I wanna do. Yes some of those people are vegan, anti this, anti that but you know they're having fun with it, its what they believe/want to do and they won't be a nazi about it [at least people that I know]. Some of them [usually older one] can't be fucked doing it anymore just because they can't live by it and have fun. You won't have fun in your life if you restricted yourself too much to things, life is too short for those things.

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

By the way this is StuckInBielers (it keeps saying 'Someone')

Anyway, i do try and carry that on into other things, like buying shoes and food ethically etc. But I think the added thing with music is the cultural significance: It's the underground that keeps music moving forward and passionate, as everyone on this site probably knows mainstream music is almost completely souless. Whereas you can't really get soulful/soulless softdrink. Basically the arts have a lot more to lose than other things by going corporate.

Sorry if i'm repeating what anyone else has said, i don't have time to read all the posts. X

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

Music and the arts have alot more to lose from going corporate, mainly culturally. Its hard to describe a soft drink as having any soul.

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Someone (January 30, 2008)

Music and the arts have alot more to lose from going corporate, mainly culturally. Its hard to describe a soft drink as having any soul.

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

a drink may not have a soul, but to think that it doesn't have any role in culture is wrong, imho.

think about all the people talking about buying beer at shows. tell me that's not a cultural thing...

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Someone (January 30, 2008)
I guess culture is too vague a word to use. Put it this way: If there was no DIY, underground music scene there would be no music. If there was no underground beer scene there would still be beer. Its hard to explain but do you get that? I mean the very fact that 'underground beer scene' is such a ridiculous phrase sort of makes my point to some extent, there's just not as much to lose so people prioritize.

Also you mentioned that just becuase somethings cheap doesn't make it more ethical, or something along those lines, on a different part of a nearby thread. I agree with that, especially when it comes to food. One of the many reasons i'm vegetarian is becasue over here in the UK chicken is now cheaper by the pound than dog food, becuase its battery farmed. When it comes to food and clothes and alot of things being ethical means shelling out more cash.

show rest of commentI guess culture is too vague a word to use. Put it this way: If there was no DIY, underground music scene there would be no music. If there was no underground beer scene there would still be beer. Its hard to explain but do you get that? I mean the very fact that 'underground beer scene' is such a ridiculous phrase sort of makes my point to some extent, there's just not as much to lose so people prioritize.

Also you mentioned that just becuase somethings cheap doesn't make it more ethical, or something along those lines, on a different part of a nearby thread. I agree with that, especially when it comes to food. One of the many reasons i'm vegetarian is becasue over here in the UK chicken is now cheaper by the pound than dog food, becuase its battery farmed. When it comes to food and clothes and alot of things being ethical means shelling out more cash.

StuckInBielers
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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

just cos you're not a part of it, doesn't mean there's a thriving diy beer scene in the world.

can you go to medium sized rock club to see xdiybandx and get one of these diy beers? prolly not. just like you can't go to medium sized record store (with exceptions) and get a diy record.

it takes looking into to find, but it's out there.

but the corporate beer world is not keeping the beer world alive anymore than major record labels keep music alive and kicking.



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fallingupwards84 (January 30, 2008)

define "diy beer"... that just sounds so ridiculous. do it yourself beer; one of my history professors brews his own beer at home, and i guess that counts as diy. but even before Miller started brewing Pabst, Pabst was not a diy beer... they were still a business

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

define diy records.

if you break it down far enough, unless you drilled and refined the petroleum yourself, and smelted it into records, with machines you built yourself from ore that you mined, then you had to kick down some money to someone at some point.

it's a matter of degrees. how important is it to you that you support what you do? do you think about the things that aren't records that you buy, and where they come from, with the same fervor that goes into deciding which labels are ok to buy from and which aren't?

i was just (in my original "buy what about pbr?" post) pointing out an interesting (to me) inconsistancy between the politics of buying records with that of buying booze. or any other product, for that matter.



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fallingupwards84 (January 30, 2008)

exactly, and thats why i draw the line at beer

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ElVaquero (January 30, 2008)

You ever tried Frostop Root Beer? Now that shit does have soul

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dlangl4 (January 31, 2008)

I've never heard of it but it sonds delishious.

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fallingupwards84 (January 30, 2008)

DIY's overrated; who over the age of 22 really gives a fuck?
besides, PBR doesn't do all the corporate advertising that Bud Light and the likes do, so its still an alternative beer, even when its brewed now by Miller.
but at the end of the day, it doesnt matter; its a cheap beer and it makes happy as a drunk consumer.

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HOISTDATRAG (January 30, 2008)

when taken away from our scene, to be DIY is to work on a self sufficient farm, because really, there is no other way that someone can truly be DIY in todays society. No matter what a punk band may do, the scene will always be dependent on some major corporation, from the clothes they wear and the CD's their music is printed on to the tours they play on. Ask anyone who has been on tour, if you are not dependent on Wal-Mart, major gas stations and fast food joints, you'll be screwed.

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veganboyjosh (January 30, 2008)

with that logic, bands going on tour is directly supporting walmart, fast food, major gas stations?

so, if i don't wanna support those things with my money, by extension then, i shouldn't support bands on tour.

thanks! that makes things much easier...

I love your cynicism. Nobody should ever try slowing or stopping somebody bigger because there's no way they will EVER win, right? Not to mention that someone like the Attorney General's Office probably knows what they're doing at least just as much as the RIAA, so the field is finally being leveled a little bit. I don't know, I seriously hate people who post here sometimes.

I agree, but unfortunately that wouldn't cover their attorney fees who probably bill at $350 per hour or more

In Russia, car drives you.

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damnitsderek (January 30, 2008)

Yakov Smirnoff > RIAA

actually, not so much; i have the tickets to prove it. and for me, it's usually a speeding ticket and a DUI, which i don't think exists in oregon(not in the more rural areas, or so i hear)

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ElVaquero (January 30, 2008)

Now now, don't hate on rural Oregon. You can drive fast as fuck!

I feel the same way. I'd much rather pay for music in order to support the artists that are making it. Plus, I think I'd be overwhelmed if I downloaded everything I've ever wanted for free. I like letting albums soak in slowly. Much more satisfying that way.

Before college I downloaded stuff, but now living on campus makes me much more wary about it. So I just don't.

I used to say that downloading wasn't a big deal because I still bought albums, so I would just download things I would never buy, but that didn't work out how I liked to think it did. To this day, there are still plenty of albums I would have bought but never did just because downloading was easier.

And I do think it's a good thing to not download. I've been using the iTunes store lately, and that is really convenient, despite the lack of physical cds and art etc. (and minus the fact that a search for Attack in Black still only comes up with an EP, even though their myspace says the full-lengths are supposed to be there).

A few labels on that list (Fat, for example) aren't actually members and have tried to get themselves taken off.