No. Some jackass crusties from Arizona beat him up.

The rumor about skinheads date from one SF Weekly column from the time (which was corrected the following week). It would've died a complete & justified death but it was repeated in Stephen Blush's sloppy "American Hardcore" book.

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deadelectromix (May 26, 2008)

Ah, well thank you sir.
You are about 10x as punx as I.

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LushJ (May 26, 2008)

Not at all. I'm just too stubborn to learn a new subculture. Sigh...

Uh, the film was shot (& that show happened) way before Against Me! signed to a major label.

Are you saying Gilman Street bookers fucked up by not using their time-travelling ability when booking them?

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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

I know it was from the past, but it's pretty hilarious and undercuts their whole "isn't it neat how independent we are?"

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LushJ (May 26, 2008)

Since 924 Gilman has no control over the editing of the documentary, how do you logically get to it undercutting the no-majors policy?

(this is a serious question, I'm not breaking your balls here)

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SloaneDaley (May 26, 2008)

I don't mean to speak for the dude but I think he was just pointing out that it is kind of funny even if technically speaking having Against Me! in it from their pre-major days doesn't go against their ideals because they are seen as torch bearers of the DIY ethic and AM! basically shat all over that with "punk ghetto" typed comments even if they upheld those same ideals at one time.

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LushJ (May 26, 2008)

Fair enough.

I get the "isn't that odd" thing, obviously- I'd have to be a tone deaf mongoloid not to- but it's the followup thoughts that say "wait a sec..." that I'm talking about.



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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

Any documentary about a place like Gilman (or any small underdog) doing things by their own rules will invariably take the tack of "look how noble they are in the face of everything." Which may be the case. I'm not judging that.

I'm just saying, if that's the message you're trying to send, having a band who famously and spectacularly signed to a major label in one of the most notorious moves in punk history doesn't really underscore the "look at the community we've created" vibe I have a feeling this is going to focus on.

pretty sure its from a concert they had there before any sire shit went down

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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

Yeah, but I figured that would have been such an obvious "WTF?" to anyone watching that they would either alter the movie or not use it in the trailer.

They obviously aren't that strict with rule #1, they just hosted Pinhead Gunpowder. Sure, PG isn't on a major label themselves, but three of the members are connected to, you know, the biggest punk band currently active (if not ever, at least in terms of commercial success).

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android (May 26, 2008)

didn´t PG give them money for a new sound system (that´s gonna bring them back up,yeah,one thing that they can depend on)?
or was it adeline records?

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skaboom (May 26, 2008)

It was one of them. I don't mean to come across like I'm accusing them of selling out or anything either, just that they aren't hyper-elitists like the PIX crowd, for example.

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gotsmuch (May 26, 2008)

haaaaa smelly elitist PIX kids.

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throw_aways (May 27, 2008)

Adeline is a subsidiary company of Warner, so technically, every Adeline band is on a major. I mean, I'm fine with them booking PG, considering I'm sure it got voted on and passed. but yeah. PG is, I would argue, on a major

yeah, that was kind of wtf? moment for me.

I think the more ironic fact is that the music for the trailer is not from a Gilman-related or even bay area-related band. They could've used Op Ivy, Rancid, Mr. T Experience, early Green Day, NOFX, or any of dozens of other bands who actually have roots in the venue, rather than a band from Florida who just played there on a tour stop.

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throw_aways (May 27, 2008)

yeah, that's what i thought. i mean, the using a band on a major label thing is funny too, but it's way dumber to me that they didn't use a Bay area band. i mean, I can see why maybe the OpIvy and Crimpshrine footage was all too bad to use, sound quality wise (all the live stuff i've heard is atrocious), but I'm sure they could have gotten some decent sounding stuff from American Steel, Rancid, Green Day etc. Using Against Me is a pretty odd decision

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)

Big up's to the idea that American Steel could've been used. I think the trailer would've been exponentially cooler with the bridge of "Maria" playing, or "Sons of Avarice".

I spent from late August 1987 - 1993 going to shows there. I agree. It was really awesome.

I get the vibe of "we don't care how the shirt looks so long as it fits."

where do people like you come from? do you know any of the people who run this space? do you have any idea how hard they work? i'll make the assumption that you don't since your assumptions about the venue and people who give their time to the space isn't supported by any solid evidence. I lived in the bay area for 4 years and have had the opportunity to meet many of the gilman staff on a personal level. those kids are some of the hardest working people in the diy punk scene. if you'd shut your mouth for a minute and check it out you'd see that too asshole.

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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

Take drugs. Lighten up.

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Dudley_Shale (May 26, 2008)
Who are you to say the same thing to me, sweetheart? You lived there, and blah blah blah. I live in Arizona, and no, I haven't been to 924 Gilmans. I've actually taken the time to support musicians, venues and artists who don't carry the same stigma that 924 carries.

These aren't just assumptions, it's actually fact. Theres a trailer out now, dummy. For a documentary. Stop being a blow-hard long enough to realize that...oh, wait, this is going to see some level of market.

They use an Against Me! song for the trailer. So...in essence, unless they just hand out copies of this dvd for free, and theres never a penny requested for it, they've just used one of the most controversial bands in recent memory (controversial for "shitting" on the same ideals that 924 "exudes") to promote.

I hear the argument of "they don't have a time machine" but,

show rest of commentWho are you to say the same thing to me, sweetheart? You lived there, and blah blah blah. I live in Arizona, and no, I haven't been to 924 Gilmans. I've actually taken the time to support musicians, venues and artists who don't carry the same stigma that 924 carries.

These aren't just assumptions, it's actually fact. Theres a trailer out now, dummy. For a documentary. Stop being a blow-hard long enough to realize that...oh, wait, this is going to see some level of market.

They use an Against Me! song for the trailer. So...in essence, unless they just hand out copies of this dvd for free, and theres never a penny requested for it, they've just used one of the most controversial bands in recent memory (controversial for "shitting" on the same ideals that 924 "exudes") to promote.

I hear the argument of "they don't have a time machine" but, I mean if thats the case...why not use some old Green Day footage? Maybe some AFI footage? Would it have been impossible to use Operation Ivy footage instead?

I've checked it out, darling. I don't make any qualms that I might make hypocritical statements once in a while, but I don't let some Scouts Honor-esque code stop me from actually being a decent human being to bands that were nothing but good to me in the early days.
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LushJ (May 26, 2008)

In case you missed it in a comment above, the 924 Gilman collective had NOTHING to do with the editing or making of this film, beyond giving Jack the go-ahead to film it. That means the collective does not have any input into the final version. We trust Jack to give an accurate portrayal of the place, which- having seen the film in a couple of its incarnations- I think he has. The tension between "successful" bands, "popular" bands, major label bands, and the underlying ethics of the space is real and clearly demonstrated even by the comments here.

Regardless, please separate the 924 Gilman collective's actions from the filmmaker's choices.

(you know what, I'm gonna post this on the top layer of this news item too)

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Dudley_Shale (May 26, 2008)

In given that statement, the only question that gets raised is why an institution so fiercely independent and D.I.Y such as 924 wouldn't allow themselves the ability to have some sort of say in how they are presented in film.

That kind of mirrors what a lot of people feel happens to bands that sign Major Label contracts.

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LushJ (May 26, 2008)
Yep. Then you get into what a band "owes" its original supporters or scene, or how much (if any) control a scene or early supporters should have/do have over bands over time.

That's a dicey (but interesting) pathway to wander down...

As for Gilman, I was there when we gave Jack the go-ahead to do the film. We trusted him to do an accurate job since 1)he's been a part of Gilman for 2 decades & is very familiar with the various opinions of collective members over the years 2) he was honest & said if we wanted to edit it he wasn't interested in doing it, and 3) the regular volunteers are too swamped with running shows etc to take on co-editing a movie.

A very similar project documenting the 20th anniversary shows sputtered to a stop last year sometime, and that had direct involvement by active collective members. All of the footage is t

show rest of commentYep. Then you get into what a band "owes" its original supporters or scene, or how much (if any) control a scene or early supporters should have/do have over bands over time.

That's a dicey (but interesting) pathway to wander down...

As for Gilman, I was there when we gave Jack the go-ahead to do the film. We trusted him to do an accurate job since 1)he's been a part of Gilman for 2 decades & is very familiar with the various opinions of collective members over the years 2) he was honest & said if we wanted to edit it he wasn't interested in doing it, and 3) the regular volunteers are too swamped with running shows etc to take on co-editing a movie.

A very similar project documenting the 20th anniversary shows sputtered to a stop last year sometime, and that had direct involvement by active collective members. All of the footage is there, it's just got to be organized into some sort of film.


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Dudley_Shale (May 26, 2008)
Maybe, but at the heart of it all, what pumps through 924 is the spirit of punk rock. I realized a lot has happened to bastardize what was once a safe haven for loners and art nerds, but the truth of the matter is while what 924 embodies on it's sleeve is that which has also become my main gripe about punk rock as a whole.

It's too pre-determined. You can only be embraced if you basically recapture the same magic that once got the attention of others outside of your local scene, but you better not change much, and here are some rules we'd like you to follow as well.

Why are there rules? I mean, I do get that every once in a while there will be a band that completely tarnishes, and holds it's nose in the air towards the direction from whence it came, and those bands should be drummed out, but...

There was no reason to drum out Green

show rest of commentMaybe, but at the heart of it all, what pumps through 924 is the spirit of punk rock. I realized a lot has happened to bastardize what was once a safe haven for loners and art nerds, but the truth of the matter is while what 924 embodies on it's sleeve is that which has also become my main gripe about punk rock as a whole.

It's too pre-determined. You can only be embraced if you basically recapture the same magic that once got the attention of others outside of your local scene, but you better not change much, and here are some rules we'd like you to follow as well.

Why are there rules? I mean, I do get that every once in a while there will be a band that completely tarnishes, and holds it's nose in the air towards the direction from whence it came, and those bands should be drummed out, but...

There was no reason to drum out Green Day, in particular. For everything that band has accomplished, theres stil 924 closing off it's doors to a band, and specifically Billie Joe, who only wishes to still come in, still play, and return the favor. Be it sound equipment, whatever, if 924 could get past the stigma of a major label, and realize that Green Days approach hasn't changed all that much in 16 years....shit, a lot could get done for the community and for that particular scene.

But to include being on a major label as being just as bad as a band spouting Hitler Youth rhetoric, or misogynistic babel...that undercuts any tact anyone might have, in my opinion.
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xmadcowx (May 26, 2008)

you sound like a 14 year old who just discovered the politics of punk. rhetorical questions meant to make some overarching point about punk rock as a whole. hahaha. "why are there rules?" hah. give me a break dood. now all of a sudden you have suggestions on how to get things done for the community in the mean time you admit yourself you've never been to gilman?

Whats the matter Dudley? You in Fall Out Boy and Gilman won't book your band? Major label envy? What past experience has made you so grumpy about Gilman's policies? Please share, we are all hear to listen.

You still have yet to give a specific example except greenday this and billie joe that.

iwow man, you miss the whole point.

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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

He's just saying they're putting a meaningless precept ahead of the actual music and ideas.

Why shouldn't a major label band play Gilman if they're honest and politically active?

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royalt (May 26, 2008)

Gilman isn't exactly suited to host any bands on major labels. You can't buy tickets from ticketmaster, they don't have enormous security, they don't have a backstage area, they don't nearly have the capacity.

I'm pretty sure Green Day knew they wouldn't be playing Gilman anymore once they signed onto a major. I highly doubt they are pissed off about the whole thing.

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MattRamone (May 26, 2008)

Just because a band is on a major doesn't mean they were huge. I'm sure the Futureheads, back when they were on Warner, would have done just fine. If this weren't the case, why would it have even mattered in the first place?

I mean. this is all theory, and I can understand why it would not be a good idea for AFI to play another show there - it would be a nightmare and the cops would probably shut it down before it even began.

This whole debate has been in/about theory, but I think that's what makes it interesting.

If it were at possible, I would love to see a band like Green Day headline Gilman, charge $700 a ticket to superfans, and then donate every last nickel to Food Not Bombs. I'm guessing the hungry and the homeless don't care about major labels.

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Dudley_Shale (May 26, 2008)

Actually, in response to this in particular, here in Arizona there are a link of venues, one of which is perfect for bands the size of Against Me!, Alkaline Trio, NOFX, etc, and that'd be the Marquee. They host a whole slew of bigger tours coming through (such as even MSI, and the Dresden Dolls this week.) and they are linked with other local venues throughout the state (Brick house, club house, Rialto, the Rock, etc.) where they all pooled together to start their own ticket company so they wouldn't have to deal with Ticketmaster. It's called Lucky Man Productions.

All of these venues are competing entities that, by and by, work together to keep something like Ticketmaster at bay. Why is it that the Bay Area can't do this?

Shit, Foxboro Hot Tubs/Green Day just played the Brick House last night. Not much security there, but things went off well.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
Well, the inverse here is that you sound like the 19 year old jaded asshole that thinks they have "seen some shit man" and have survived one, or two of the trends that came through punk rock and stayed "true".

An experience, shit, I can just point to someone who's intolerant like you. Your cookie-cutter politics, I'm sure on life as a whole even, where people like you exhibit a flock-like mentality. This, punk rock as a whole, is more work in proving yourself as "legit" than any other culture in the world. What are you weeding out? People who came some place for acceptance, only to be treated with a communistic attitude?

It's no fucking wonder bands like AFI, Against Me!, Alkaline Trio, and shit even the Blood Brothers all said "fuck it", and joined majors. Theres so much pissing posts throughout areas like 924, that instead of just playing music, whi

show rest of commentWell, the inverse here is that you sound like the 19 year old jaded asshole that thinks they have "seen some shit man" and have survived one, or two of the trends that came through punk rock and stayed "true".

An experience, shit, I can just point to someone who's intolerant like you. Your cookie-cutter politics, I'm sure on life as a whole even, where people like you exhibit a flock-like mentality. This, punk rock as a whole, is more work in proving yourself as "legit" than any other culture in the world. What are you weeding out? People who came some place for acceptance, only to be treated with a communistic attitude?

It's no fucking wonder bands like AFI, Against Me!, Alkaline Trio, and shit even the Blood Brothers all said "fuck it", and joined majors. Theres so much pissing posts throughout areas like 924, that instead of just playing music, which everyone forgets thats exactly what this is...just music, these rules about "Major Labels" are just there to imbue someone's own grandiose feelings. A small dog yapping at a big dog, if you will.

So as far as examples...yeah, I point the the misguided values that are set only to make it seem like there is something worth-while happening, when in reality, it's just a self-imposed barrier.

Third Eye Blind used to play Gilmans. Whats that say for anything?

And really, I wouldn't want to be a part of something that wouldn't have allowed the very foundation of this sub-culture, wouldn't have allowed the fucking Ramones, or Clash to play. Jawbreaker, too. Are you serious?

The argument could, and should be made that 924 isn't about music, but about some set of rules for an existence. One moment a band like Bad Religion could be adored and worshiped in those halls, and the next they sign to Atlantic and can't play anymore? What changed? Did they throw live abortions into the act, as per Atlantic stipulation?

As for me having not been there...yeah, I gladly admit that. While I was busy not being there, doing things in my own community like a Food Not Bombs styled event, to shows to benefit people in crisis...I guess I missed my chance on receiving a punk card. However, I also never went to Auschwitz during 1941, but I uh, I still have a premonition that it was pretty fucking bad.
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MattRamone (May 27, 2008)

I for one enjoyed Bad Religion's Mandatory Abortion period.

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sugarfull (May 27, 2008)

Wow, that post echoes a lot of the sentiments that I have been feeling about punk recently.

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MattRamone (May 27, 2008)

There's so much focus on the trappings that some don't remember that music is involved.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)

Absolutely, dude. But I realize that it isn't just now that these things have been happening, it's been since day one.

I guess this is the point in my life where I just go to the shows, get drunk and then hit up a taco stand afterwards, instead of handing out fliers and trying to bang chicks who are just getting into punk.

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LushJ (May 27, 2008)

I'm sorry that this music is "just music" for you. There's a lot more to it if you let yourself think about context & ethics. If you're interested, check out the lyrics to Verbal Assault's "More Than Music."

If you're not interested on understanding why so many people in so many scenes attach meaning & context to art (including music & lyrics), then that's your loss. I don't understand why you would keep on yammering about a scene & a level of music that you know nothing but the most shallow, surface level information about, but hey, it's your time you're wasting, not mine.

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MattRamone (May 27, 2008)

I think what he's getting at (and dude is more than capable of defending himself) is that people are taking the totems, trappings, and ephemera more seriously than the music itself.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
That's the thing, ask anyone who knows me, even MattRamone on here, and he'd argue the fact that I'm not vapid and shallow towards music. It's when it becomes a fucking dichotomy where it's impossible to follow that I take the defense of "it's just music."

It becomes "just music" to me when assholes on march try and tell me I don't have a right to say anything, when I take the time to write about music, when I spent so many days in the now dead and gone Nile in Mesa, Arizona, or even going as far to put on shows in areas so remote I can guarantee you haven't heard of, to help put clothes and food in the mouths and hands of people in crisis, not to mention giving an alternative to drug use or promiscuous sex as a means of something to do.

I know a lot more than you would assume, but I still have that right to take umbridge with somethin

show rest of commentThat's the thing, ask anyone who knows me, even MattRamone on here, and he'd argue the fact that I'm not vapid and shallow towards music. It's when it becomes a fucking dichotomy where it's impossible to follow that I take the defense of "it's just music."

It becomes "just music" to me when assholes on march try and tell me I don't have a right to say anything, when I take the time to write about music, when I spent so many days in the now dead and gone Nile in Mesa, Arizona, or even going as far to put on shows in areas so remote I can guarantee you haven't heard of, to help put clothes and food in the mouths and hands of people in crisis, not to mention giving an alternative to drug use or promiscuous sex as a means of something to do.

I know a lot more than you would assume, but I still have that right to take umbridge with something I feel is problematic.

So until some one I actually feel is doing amazing things in the "scene", like oh say...Mike Park...when Mike Park tells me I know nothing about this, and that and to shut up about it...then I will. Until then, I don't see why you can't acknowledge the fact that these things are a black eye to a cause you vehemently support.
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Jackisch (May 27, 2008)
I'm amazed at how much you write for how little you say. What I've gotten from your argument is that they should include major label bands more and that if they're not making the documentary they should have a say and use that say to say "include major label bands".

I don't see your response to people have valid ethical reasons for being against major labels. I don't see any reason why the staff shouldn't trust their friend or care overly if his vision is a little different from theres, since it's his documentary. Most importantly, I don't see why it's a big deal, especially to people like you and me who've never been there, and (in my case) have no intention of going there.

You can whine, and people can call you on your shit when your whining isn't really addressing any issue in a clear way, and the staff can allow whoever to make their film,

show rest of commentI'm amazed at how much you write for how little you say. What I've gotten from your argument is that they should include major label bands more and that if they're not making the documentary they should have a say and use that say to say "include major label bands".

I don't see your response to people have valid ethical reasons for being against major labels. I don't see any reason why the staff shouldn't trust their friend or care overly if his vision is a little different from theres, since it's his documentary. Most importantly, I don't see why it's a big deal, especially to people like you and me who've never been there, and (in my case) have no intention of going there.

You can whine, and people can call you on your shit when your whining isn't really addressing any issue in a clear way, and the staff can allow whoever to make their film, and he can choose to do whatever. It's a pretty beautiful world of freedom

Although I did read through all of it in search of a nugget of wisdom, so I guess it all got my attention.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
I'd also just like to throw out that I have no animosity towards you, whatsoever. Yeah, music has that power to be so much more than just three chords, and I know I've done nothing to mirror that sentiment, when I know it within myself to be so very true. But I think the line needs to be clarified between music, and existing in something thats pure, and then attaching it with certain other aspects that kind of...have no point.

When I was younger, I always looked towards Gilman as place I'd love to go. When I head of to the Bay Area this summer, I plan on catching a show there...but with this being said, this is a community that throughout my teenage years was the ONLY thing I had that gave me a place to go, and something to do, and helped provide a sense of being...

But then right around the time I entered my 20's, I really started seeing all t

show rest of commentI'd also just like to throw out that I have no animosity towards you, whatsoever. Yeah, music has that power to be so much more than just three chords, and I know I've done nothing to mirror that sentiment, when I know it within myself to be so very true. But I think the line needs to be clarified between music, and existing in something thats pure, and then attaching it with certain other aspects that kind of...have no point.

When I was younger, I always looked towards Gilman as place I'd love to go. When I head of to the Bay Area this summer, I plan on catching a show there...but with this being said, this is a community that throughout my teenage years was the ONLY thing I had that gave me a place to go, and something to do, and helped provide a sense of being...

But then right around the time I entered my 20's, I really started seeing all these things that made me uneasy, mostly because while the name is different, the actions are the same of that of those same rich kids elitist, and jocks that used to sneer at me for wearing a Bouncing Souls shirt, you know?

Now, if I wear an Against Me! shirt at a show, I get those same fucking sneers. Fuck that, I'm going to like what I like because that does not define me as a person. Nearly ten years ago I was casting these same stones that still get cast, because I didn't take the time to just realize that music isn't what should determine whom I associate with. I've met some of these bands that catch shit now, endlessly, and I met them before that, and after the fact, and for the most part...they are still the same people, just deciding they can go it their own then.
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MattRamone (May 27, 2008)

I tend to liken it to someone taking a good job - so long as they're the same person and the music doesn't change, who gives a shit?

If Rise Against had put out their last two albums on Fat, they'd probably be adored on this site.

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LushJ (May 27, 2008)

Absolutely no animosity intended or perceived, no worries.

Look, I'm friends with a lot of people in bands from that scene who no longer play there, either through label ties or because they're too gargantuan or both. I know first hand how to separate the band members from their ethical/business choices, as do most people there. The band members understand why the "no major labels" rule is there, and their opinions on it vary from "it makes all the sense in the world" to "I was pissed but I got over it."

This is a huge topic that's been hashed out repeatedly for decades, so I'll just add that personal aside & leave it at that.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
See, and the thing is I kinda just get my ass chapped about the situation still, and I guess it flowed over with 924 just because I think a venue, for the most part, really shouldn't shouldn't worry about the bands cosmetic situations, as long they are treating the fans good, practice what they preach, and don't have U2 sized ego's.

And with this in particular, I view a lot of politics that people glob onto so closely, and sometimes, it's for things don't need to be. I highly respect people who live by say...straight edge, or vegetarian/vegan, but people become so militant about things it really drains the fun out of music. I don't care how people live their own lives, as long as they don't force feed their ideals upon me, and then with 924 I can take a look at myself right now, and really realize I probably couldn't set foot inside those doors without someone

show rest of commentSee, and the thing is I kinda just get my ass chapped about the situation still, and I guess it flowed over with 924 just because I think a venue, for the most part, really shouldn't shouldn't worry about the bands cosmetic situations, as long they are treating the fans good, practice what they preach, and don't have U2 sized ego's.

And with this in particular, I view a lot of politics that people glob onto so closely, and sometimes, it's for things don't need to be. I highly respect people who live by say...straight edge, or vegetarian/vegan, but people become so militant about things it really drains the fun out of music. I don't care how people live their own lives, as long as they don't force feed their ideals upon me, and then with 924 I can take a look at myself right now, and really realize I probably couldn't set foot inside those doors without someone having a problem with something I was doing.

But yeah, this is an Atlas styled discussion. I really do appreciate where you're coming from, though.
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LushJ (May 27, 2008)
Fair enough, I think we've gone as far as we can in this discusison.

The last thing I'd say is, why are you concerned with what problem you imagine "someone" may have with you? Punk fucking rock, walk in there & enjoy yourself. Pitch in if you want. Talk to people. Don't let the stilted back & forth here affect your visit.

I used to be there most days of the week, and knew every volunteer as a friend (or at least as a lapsed enemy, ha ha ha). That stopped around the mid-1990s, but I still go back & see shows & hang out with the old fogies who still show up. I also hang out with the new kids who are doing what I did back then.

You want to talk about weird, I ran for Berkeley City Council in 2004 and I had a fundraiser show there for the campaign- even though a small minority of scenesters looked down on involvement in electo

show rest of commentFair enough, I think we've gone as far as we can in this discusison.

The last thing I'd say is, why are you concerned with what problem you imagine "someone" may have with you? Punk fucking rock, walk in there & enjoy yourself. Pitch in if you want. Talk to people. Don't let the stilted back & forth here affect your visit.

I used to be there most days of the week, and knew every volunteer as a friend (or at least as a lapsed enemy, ha ha ha). That stopped around the mid-1990s, but I still go back & see shows & hang out with the old fogies who still show up. I also hang out with the new kids who are doing what I did back then.

You want to talk about weird, I ran for Berkeley City Council in 2004 and I had a fundraiser show there for the campaign- even though a small minority of scenesters looked down on involvement in electoral politics. The regular collective members, however, were all in support of my campaign & were happy to let us rent the space for the event. Talk about something that people here would think be divisive!

I hope you'll be happily surprised by your experiences @ Gilman. Have fun!
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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)

I hope honestly I'm just not becoming jaded. I think I should just kinda realize with any good, there comes a bad.

Another thing I don't like about Gilmans...no alcohol! What the hell, haha.

See, I thought about running for the City Council here the next time it's held, too, but not many people vote, and me being broke...well, yeah, I don't see it happening.

How did you do in the election?

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LushJ (May 27, 2008)

3rd outta 3!

I got 16% of the vote, about 1200 people, which considering that I was a political unknown is astounding. I knocked on thousands of doors & talked with hundreds of voters in my district.

It was really fun, but this election cycle I'm sitting out & working on building the local Green Party chapter.

You should totally run. If not you or me, who? Answer: the same old people. Best way to get hands on experience before you run is to volunteer for another candidate or proposition, or to do other community service activities. You'll meet tons of people and eventually voila, you're a known political entity who may win within a couple of elections!

More info at http://www.grassrootscandidate.org

Good luck!

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Jesus_H_Christ (May 26, 2008)

dude...you fucking destroyed him.

10 stars for the best response I've seen in awhile.

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xmadcowx (May 26, 2008)
gilman street is a not for profit space. its staff isnt paid. the only people who get paid are security and that's because the venue has no insurance and most of the money a security guard makes doesn't even compare to the medical bills nearly every single one of them has accumulated from fucking assholes picking fights with them. any money this space makes is well deserved. the people running it are entitled to do whatever they want, even if their politics weren't in sync with whatever mythological punk ideology that you seem to think exists outside of all of us. and as was brought up by another individual, the film is made by someone else not affiliated with the venue.

As far as the Against Me example, its seems irrelevant to your overall problem with the space... plus its not valid since the Gilman staff weren't responsible for the trailer. And what seems to be y

show rest of commentgilman street is a not for profit space. its staff isnt paid. the only people who get paid are security and that's because the venue has no insurance and most of the money a security guard makes doesn't even compare to the medical bills nearly every single one of them has accumulated from fucking assholes picking fights with them. any money this space makes is well deserved. the people running it are entitled to do whatever they want, even if their politics weren't in sync with whatever mythological punk ideology that you seem to think exists outside of all of us. and as was brought up by another individual, the film is made by someone else not affiliated with the venue.

As far as the Against Me example, its seems irrelevant to your overall problem with the space... plus its not valid since the Gilman staff weren't responsible for the trailer. And what seems to be your fixation with Green Day, AFI and Op Ivy? Not to mention that most of the current Gilman staff had nothing to do with those bands playing. The volunteers at Gilman are constantly changing, thankfully, because its the youthful drive of these people that has kept the venue alive.

Also, how does having a policy as theirs stop them from being decent human beings? What a pathetic childish claim. Once you validate your moral ruler then you can start making claims like this. Until you do, please keep your primitive logic to yourself.

One last thing, you may want to consider a "Scouts Honor-esque"" code, as you so delicately put it DARLING, it will stop you from running your mouth about people and projects you don't know anything about... sounding like an idiot by constantly evoking the biggest bands to come out of gilman as though those bands maintained the existence of the space. Newsflash amigo, Tim Armstrong hasn't kept the space open... rather its a bunch of 20 something year olds who take the time out of their lives to continue to GIVE their time. If you don't like what they are doing with it, you move to Berkeley and volunteer... people will welcome you with open arms, despite your preconception that they carry some stigma that would say otherwise. Besides, YOU'VE ACTUALLY TAKEN THE TIME TO SUPPORT MUSICIANS, VENUES and ARTISTS.... you should certainly come and save the bay area, we are in desperate need of your help! we have no idea how to do this!

I'll wait for your ridiculous response to try and recover yourself, because you are too stubborn to admit you don't know what you are talking about.
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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
First of all, my "fixation" with Green Day is that they are the prime example. A perfect one at that. It's no secret that at one point, I don't know if it is anymore, that it was tagged on the wall, "Billie Joe must die". Wait, really? At such a harmonious place that doesn't tolerate discrimination or violent rhetoric? And what did ol' Billie Joe go out and do....buy the place a new speaker system.

Yet Green Day themselves still couldn't play.

As for "Also, how does having a policy as theirs stop them from being decent human beings? What a pathetic childish claim. Once you validate your moral ruler then you can start making claims like this. Until you do, please keep your primitive logic to yourself."

This is coming from the same individual who stated, and I quote, "There is no room for god in punk, no matter what you call it and where it

show rest of commentFirst of all, my "fixation" with Green Day is that they are the prime example. A perfect one at that. It's no secret that at one point, I don't know if it is anymore, that it was tagged on the wall, "Billie Joe must die". Wait, really? At such a harmonious place that doesn't tolerate discrimination or violent rhetoric? And what did ol' Billie Joe go out and do....buy the place a new speaker system.

Yet Green Day themselves still couldn't play.

As for "Also, how does having a policy as theirs stop them from being decent human beings? What a pathetic childish claim. Once you validate your moral ruler then you can start making claims like this. Until you do, please keep your primitive logic to yourself."

This is coming from the same individual who stated, and I quote, "There is no room for god in punk, no matter what you call it and where it comes from. Rastafari is bullshit. Bad Brains wrote some great hardcore and were ahead of their times musically, but that doesn't mean one has to tolerate the religious crap that's spewed out."

This to me, purely denotes any argument you think you have. And thats coming from an Atheist.

You later went on to state, "have you read about rastafarianism? i have, and i think its bullshit. if it were purely cultural, thats one thing. you're part of the problem. just because a religion comes off progressive isn't a good enough reason for me to accept it."

I agree about your sentiments of homophobia, that has no place whatsoever near punk rock, but the rest of this babel is a dividing rod, and for what? Because you think you know me? Because you disagree with my sentiments? I can accept that, and hey, I like conversation, but again...I still think it's shitty to turn ones back on a group of people that a few years ago were treated like royalty on stage just because of a contract.

Do you even know what separates an indie-label from a major? Boiled down, it's basically that a major label has it's own distribution, and promotion power. Guess what, so does Epitaph and Fat Wreck. Are they barred from 924 as well? Vagrant for a long time was inked to Universal for distribution purposes, but Alkaline Trio still played Gilmans in the era of "From Here to Infirmary."

If the ideology permits bands from playing in 924 because of a piece of paper, something minute in the landscape of things, then why stop there? It's JUST as inconsequential as someone sporting a pair of Nikes or Adidias in the building.


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xmadcowx (May 27, 2008)
if you'd like to go back to the rasta conversation that is fine, but its not relevant to this one. you avoided my claims and switched topics. until you address my points made concerning this discussion i have nothing further to say to you. whether or not you think my comments on rasta were worded poorly does not relinquish you from your absurd comments.
the only thing worth addressing is your comment about the graffiti... which is a bizarre example at that. The walls of gilman are constantly being tagged and constantly being painted over. you have this twisted perception of what the space is and i suggest you read up on it, visit it, meet the people and then reconsider your uninformed perspective.

i don't know you dood, and i don't want to. you have proven on this board that you are quick to criticize active people in the scene because you think you know. m

show rest of commentif you'd like to go back to the rasta conversation that is fine, but its not relevant to this one. you avoided my claims and switched topics. until you address my points made concerning this discussion i have nothing further to say to you. whether or not you think my comments on rasta were worded poorly does not relinquish you from your absurd comments.
the only thing worth addressing is your comment about the graffiti... which is a bizarre example at that. The walls of gilman are constantly being tagged and constantly being painted over. you have this twisted perception of what the space is and i suggest you read up on it, visit it, meet the people and then reconsider your uninformed perspective.

i don't know you dood, and i don't want to. you have proven on this board that you are quick to criticize active people in the scene because you think you know. my opinion on you is validated through specific points i have made about the things you have said and the way you have criticized others. you are entitled to make the same judgement of me, but at the end of the day, you are the one speaking about a space and a community you have never experienced outside of your computer room and your punk rock gossip circles.

i'm going to bed and i'm done wasting my time with you. enjoy your greenday albums in Arizona.


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MattRamone (May 27, 2008)

I have some advice for you:

1. Listen to "Where Do Ya Draw the Line?"
2. Do whatever drug mellows you out
3. Realize that maybe music is more important than the bullshit that surrounds it
4. Maybe realize that straight edge is no less ridiculous than religion
5. Fap fap fap fap fap
6. ???
7. Profit!

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
What gossip circles? What have YOU specifically done, because I've stated a portion of what it is I've done. Those quotations of you on the Rasta thing are very relevant in my gripe being with assholes like you actually saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, but have never 'experienced'. I've lived on both coasts, have been very active within California, as well as Arizona, and New York. East Bay, tragically, isn't the only happening in America, I guess is my main bullet point there.

You say I'm uninformed, but about what exactly? We have similar spaces here (Trunk Space and the Modified Art to name a few) that are a lot smaller, that don't tolerate racism, sexism or homophobia, but thats about it.

As stated earlier, I'm going to Gilmans this summer, which has been a long-brewing plan. As much as I have complaints about it, I seriously respect al

show rest of commentWhat gossip circles? What have YOU specifically done, because I've stated a portion of what it is I've done. Those quotations of you on the Rasta thing are very relevant in my gripe being with assholes like you actually saying I have no idea what I'm talking about, but have never 'experienced'. I've lived on both coasts, have been very active within California, as well as Arizona, and New York. East Bay, tragically, isn't the only happening in America, I guess is my main bullet point there.

You say I'm uninformed, but about what exactly? We have similar spaces here (Trunk Space and the Modified Art to name a few) that are a lot smaller, that don't tolerate racism, sexism or homophobia, but thats about it.

As stated earlier, I'm going to Gilmans this summer, which has been a long-brewing plan. As much as I have complaints about it, I seriously respect all the hard work and most of those guiding principles, but I feel no need to ever be active in it, not because of my complaints, but rather I have my own state to work within.

I can agree to disagree, but at the end of the day my record collection isn't there to be looked at as a point-system for how high up I can be on the totem pole.

I have read up on 924. I know all about the 2 dollar memberships, NPO stance, tagging and everything. It's the elitist factor that I call bullshit on. You read through the majority of other people who've commented on this thread, and you see most people mirror the same sentiment.

Other than calling you an asshole, (and thats towards your ideology that people who talk about their faith in God have no place in punk rock) I've not criticized anyone, just their actions.

As for the God has no place in punk rock statement...tell it to Chuck Ragan.



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LushJ (May 27, 2008)

Newsflash: the Gilman Street collective doesn't vote on and approve of every piece of graffiti on the walls.

I don't understand how what an anonymous person (who may be a regular volunteer, who may be a patron who never volunteers, who may be a band member, who may be IN Green Day, etc) scrawls on a wall effects the collective's attitude towards specific bands.

Plus, the fact that all of those band members are welcome & do come to the occasional show (& in the case of GD side bands The Frustrators & Pinhead Gunpowder, PLAY the occasional show) belies whatever institutional bias you're claiming.

It's a matter of what entity the band is obligated to make money for. If the entity is a multinational corporation, then we choose to not be a part of that financial & ethical exchange. Period.

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Dudley_Shale (May 27, 2008)
My question is that would be left on the walls, that particular piece of graffiti. It isn't like any of those side projects have been allowed on stage in all those years, either. I'm pretty sure "86" didn't have a parenthesis that said (except for side projects).

If someone tagged "Hail Hitler" or SS, or shit like that on the walls, or gay-bashed, would that have stayed? It might not be anyones fault who volunteered there, sure, and I don't blame you guys for that being on a wall. Any prick with a Sharpie can do things like that, it's just that it stayed up for quite a while (or so I read.)

And even though Green Day, AFI both make money for multi-national corporations, they also spend their own money worthwhile charities. Green Day with everything they did in New Orleans, AFI with Live Earth.

But I mean, smaller scale bands that happen t

show rest of commentMy question is that would be left on the walls, that particular piece of graffiti. It isn't like any of those side projects have been allowed on stage in all those years, either. I'm pretty sure "86" didn't have a parenthesis that said (except for side projects).

If someone tagged "Hail Hitler" or SS, or shit like that on the walls, or gay-bashed, would that have stayed? It might not be anyones fault who volunteered there, sure, and I don't blame you guys for that being on a wall. Any prick with a Sharpie can do things like that, it's just that it stayed up for quite a while (or so I read.)

And even though Green Day, AFI both make money for multi-national corporations, they also spend their own money worthwhile charities. Green Day with everything they did in New Orleans, AFI with Live Earth.

But I mean, smaller scale bands that happen to have Major Label backing still can't play, and I really think Gilmans is one of those spaces like CBGB's thats kind of an ultimate proving ground. It just seems weird that so easily a back can get turned to someone.

I agree. Not impressed at all.

Let's talk about Black Fork!

BAY AREA SPOONLESS SOCIETY TIL DEATH!

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Jacksonentzulo (May 26, 2008)

I remember doing "I Came From Alabama" with some dude from Sewer Trout at a birthday party, once, just to get the fucking party goin`

Cyrus, he`s like a hair rocker now, right? Playing in one of those *bands now? Black Fork`s awesome. "Jaywalking has become an epidemic" or something like that. Jazzercise shirt.

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LushJ (May 26, 2008)

JACKSON!!

Rock the radness, buddy!

P.S.- Cyrus is in Drunk Horse, you bet!

i know "Vagina Envy" from "The Thing That Ate Floyd." i laugh in a good way.

Are you serious? GTFO this site you pussy.

Brothers.

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Jacksonentzulo (May 26, 2008)

Jack tinkled the clangy bits on my favorite breakin`anthem, "Petroleum Distillation". He always said, "We`ll keep the pot warm for ya..."

At one of the screenings for this thing at Gilman, I remember it was still early and Jack came in, with a big smile on his face along with his dad. He gigled and said he was high! (laughs) Since at the time, most of the people were in the doc. were still volunteers, it felt like a home movie, with friendly jeers and obvious pleasure in the hilarity of it all.

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Chimpo (May 27, 2008)

ah ha, thought as much. Cheers.

I think if 0.0000000018 percent of the venues in the world made and ran their own club the way they wanted it, it`s alright. The tradition stems from another way of thinking, and much like anything, some rules stick for a good reason...not necessarily always knowing why, but it does.

Major labels are, by definition, owned by huge corporations including nuclear, chemical, & weapons corporations.

In the simplest terms, the profits from a major label help support the manufacture of and profit off of deadly, anti-human items.

Not gonna go deeper into this argument, since there's been hundreds of gallons & billions of pixels wasted on this question in the past 20 years.

Fuck, why not book decent blues, folk, or hip-hop artists whose ideals sync up and who might be a draw for the venue?

The bookers. It's never been perfect, but hey, it's only as good as its human components.

People start volunteering in the booking department all the time, and eventually most of them become official bookers. The head of booking tries to encourage diversity in booking genres, and they've been pretty successful, especially lately.

From Kimya Dawson to Extreme Noise Terror to Tragedy to The Uptones to The Phenomanauts to Babyland... that's a pretty good spread.

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youth_gone_wild (May 26, 2008)

agreed. i understand that it is only human. but, during the time when i was playing, the only thing that seemed to get booked were metal/hardcore shows and crust-punk stuff. that is what the bookers (who i knew personally) were into. don't know how many times i heard a phrase similar to "there is no bill you would fit on" because we weren't the style of all the shows they booked (yet, at other clubs around, we played with all types).

By the way, what band were you in? And what clubs did you book at in San Francisco?

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youth_gone_wild (May 26, 2008)

was in youth gone wild, the sick, and hotbox at different points. booked at the Cocodrie and ran shows at a place on 6th and Natoma (whose name skips my mind right now) and Kimo's amongst others.

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LushJ (May 27, 2008)

Right on- that bar tucked in behind the Chronicle/Examiner building, right? I saw Los Olvidados? Verbal Abuse? Someone like that there... late 90s?

I've always like Youth Gone Wild- even though I've never owned more than a 7-inch here & there. The 1st 2 bands played Gilman over the years for sure, though I'm not sure about Hotbox. Were people from Squat in that band?

I've been in two bands that have played Gilman (2001 was the first time I was in a band that played there) and both bands were "melodic bands" - however - we were from the east coast. We got on great shows each time we played, but we weren't a local band and I think you touched on something kind of familiar as far as all scenes go and that is the fact that local venues will pick local favorites (and the attitude is, if you aren't down with that, tuff shit). It comes down to who you know in the world (and in the punk scene, which is even more sad, but that's human nature for you)....anyway, i don't think Gilman St took as much pride as in uniting the scene as they did for giving bands a place to be heard.

You're the only one who does.

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Evil_Dead (May 26, 2008)

One other guy mentioned 'em above.

Remember though that any label that "acts like a major" is banned as well. I've never really seen the point to their silly, childish rules. Consider the fact that the Clash and Ramones would technically be banned from the venue. Punk elitism is awesome!!!!

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Dudley_Shale (May 26, 2008)

I was thinking about this earlier. Shit, even the shitty Sex Pistols would've had to settle for like...Slims.

Word.

i really enjoyed this comment. you always post good shit

I often find myself debating the very same questions raised in this song. How does one reconcile personal beliefs with trying to live? It's practically impossible to live as a "pure" anarchist, communist, conservative, or whatever in todays world. Yet, is the near impossiblity of putting certain beliefs into practice a good enough reason to dismiss said beliefs? I really don't know. Ah, damn. My thoughts are muddled.

Why not do the best you can & live as close to your ethics as you can in our capitalist society?

It's almost impossible not to be a hypocrite on some level, so just do your best to minimize your personal hypocrisy & move forward.

ooooh, now that's punk rock.

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sugarfull (May 27, 2008)

Question: is your name a reference to the band?