kids 18 or 19 and under right now never really saw a time where people paid for music. now, anybody who suggests they should have to (namely record labels) are even more the enemy than they used to be.

Agreed. Labels like Bridge 9 and Victory might be indie, but they sure look like majors. Fall of The West, on the other hand, is basically run out of a college dorm room (what up Prescott).

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

Bridge 9 looks like a major?

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JustLikeDelilah (June 3, 2008)

You didn't hear? The new Fenix TX hardcore album was such a huge seller that Sony bought that shit up instantly.

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douglas_is_rad (June 3, 2008)

I'm sorry, I just assumed everyone would understand what I was saying. B9 plays ball exactly like a major label does, and their current line-up includes the biggest names in modern hardcore (Agnostic Front, Have Heart, H20, Crime In Stereo, etc). With every new release the look more and more like less douche-baggy version of Victory. It is no longer the sort of "mail-order, 3 person staff" record label it used to be.

I think all they're saying is "don't be chintzy with our tunes." I think they recently had major van problems and asked for some help. Maintaining cars ain't free.

'I have a raging boner for this record'

Amen, this band is fucking AWESOME

People are definitely that cynical. You've been on the org long enough to have seen that.

winner

Wrong.

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

'splain how.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

which part?

i'm right about both, but i'd like to know your opinion.

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royalt (June 3, 2008)

Explain the part about stealing music making you a casual listener.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

when you steal music, it becomes disposable. you haven't made any sort of effort or commitment towards the artist, the label, the record store, etc. when you buy a record, it becomes part of your collection. its something that you cherish and hold onto for years.

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sfbarker (June 3, 2008)
That's a completely idiotic notion. You are basically saying a lack of consumerism is a lack of compassion for something. You devote your life to listening to music regardless. It was a cute little closing comment, but lacks validity.

While you may have moral qualms with downloading, I will stand by the notion that it helps people reach an audience. At $15-17 a CD, most people cannot afford to buy more than 1-3 CDs a month...3 being someone who is "committed to music". I do buy records, but I also download a lot. I'm as invested in any of the music as I am the other. I listen to it, I grow from it and it inspires me in my own music. Due to lack of funds, I'd never be able to hear it otherwise. No ARTIST would want their music not heard because someone can't afford to take it all in.

The label system and the recording industry has created a

show rest of commentThat's a completely idiotic notion. You are basically saying a lack of consumerism is a lack of compassion for something. You devote your life to listening to music regardless. It was a cute little closing comment, but lacks validity.

While you may have moral qualms with downloading, I will stand by the notion that it helps people reach an audience. At $15-17 a CD, most people cannot afford to buy more than 1-3 CDs a month...3 being someone who is "committed to music". I do buy records, but I also download a lot. I'm as invested in any of the music as I am the other. I listen to it, I grow from it and it inspires me in my own music. Due to lack of funds, I'd never be able to hear it otherwise. No ARTIST would want their music not heard because someone can't afford to take it all in.

The label system and the recording industry has created a way to molest artist and consumer while reaping maximum benefit for them. The act of doing production on one album can cost 3x as much as your average citizen makes a year, then the labels sell the albums and give the artist little.

The answer is always: Listen to their music and when they come, go out to shows, buy merch or donate money. My band played last night and I personally gave money to the out of town bands, because I'm thrilled people want to come to Houston and play. The albums aren't the reason they come.

The real problem is this, the internet, youtube, etc. People don't go out to shows anymore, if it is not 100% convenient, they stay at home. Since I was in high school, the attendance has dropped considerably. It's depressing. People don't care anymore and downloading has NOTHING to do with that.

To quote a Neil Young song: Live music is better.
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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)
maybe attendance has dropped considerably because you're still going to see the same bands you did in high school and unfortunately for those bands, people aren't as interested.

live music is as popular es ever. yotube hurts an artist about as much as their song being played on the radio or mtv hurts an artist. its free promotion that doesn't compromise sales.

"The label system and the recording industry has created a way to molest artist and consumer while reaping maximum benefit for them. The act of doing production on one album can cost 3x as much as your average citizen makes a year, then the labels sell the albums and give the artist little."

first of all this represents a very small percentage of the music industry (especially now). second of all, yes, the act of doing production on one album can cost 3x as much as someone makes in

show rest of commentmaybe attendance has dropped considerably because you're still going to see the same bands you did in high school and unfortunately for those bands, people aren't as interested.

live music is as popular es ever. yotube hurts an artist about as much as their song being played on the radio or mtv hurts an artist. its free promotion that doesn't compromise sales.

"The label system and the recording industry has created a way to molest artist and consumer while reaping maximum benefit for them. The act of doing production on one album can cost 3x as much as your average citizen makes a year, then the labels sell the albums and give the artist little."

first of all this represents a very small percentage of the music industry (especially now). second of all, yes, the act of doing production on one album can cost 3x as much as someone makes in a year, but a lot of people are making money off of those costs. the engineer, the producer, the studio owner, the janitor who cleans the studio. then later, the publicist is making money from the label's budget, so are the distributors and retail outlets.
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sfbarker (June 3, 2008)

Have you ever tried to record an album? Not to be disrespectful, but have you? The studio with 2 guys who run the equipment and press buttons with no other staff are still multiple hundreds per hour. It's called over-valuing.

And you're wrong on the live music front, concert attendance at all levels are down, it's a fact. People would rather argue here, watch clips and discuss how much smarter they are than everyone than go out in the world and experience it.

And yes, I am a hypocrit, I'm aware.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i've never recorded an album, but i've worked in the music industry for about five years, from working at venues to managing bands on relatively large indie labels to doing marketing and pr for major labels.

if they were "over valued" then people would pay somebody else less money to do those jobs.

my point was that if you're complaining about the cost of an album compared to what consumers make in a year, you have to remember that that cost is paying for plenty of jobs and contributing to the economy.

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royalt (June 3, 2008)

I think you're confused here. What you're talking about here is a commitment to "the artist, the label, the record store, etc." and yet you don't mention a commitment to, well...the music. They are not one and the same.

If what you are insinuating here is that someone who, by paying money for music, invests a certain amount of personal/labor capital into their musical interest, I still think it's bogus, or at least disagree on your idea of being a music fan. To me, a music fan is someone who spends time to listen to the music, think about intensively, has a personal connection (or aversion) to it, and "participates" in it rather than have it be some kind of passive experience.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i agree with you 100%, but i also think that when you're stealing music, when its right there at your fingertips, it becomes cheap and passive. you haven't scouted anything out. you haven't done any work so there's less to be rewarded with.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

but that's just your personal experience with music - if mp3s make the music "cheap and passive" for you, then don't do it. keep buying lousy albums on an outdated format. some of us don't see downloading as "cheap and passive," but as a way to expose ourselves to different music and eventually buy what we like

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dlangl4 (June 3, 2008)

Why do you put so much emphasis on how someone gets the music? I don't see how a song is better or worse if you put work into finding it or scouting it out.

I don't download music illegally, but I do download music legally from sites like itunes or whatever. Looking back on my collection, I can't even remember which CDs were bought at a store and which were downloaded, and I've certainly never felt that downloading a CD has made it automatically less enjoyable.

The reward is the sound that comes out of my speakers, regardless of how it gets in there in the first place...

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dlangl4 (June 3, 2008)

What makes you think that music becomes disposable to anyone and everyone who downloads music? You don't think there's a large group of downloaders out there who cherish their illegally downloaded music? I find it hard to believe that the method of obtaining the music makes it any more or less cherishable by the listener.

When I read a short story online, am I restricted from cherishing it as much as I would have had I read it in a book? I don't see where commitment comes into the equation.

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dlangl4 (June 3, 2008)

I don't even think it's possible to argue with the original statement "if you're a music fan then you buy music. if you steal music, your'e just a casual listener."

As far as I can tell, it's just an (arbitrary) defintion of two words which aren't really connected by the comparison. Seeing how "music fan" and "casual listener" aren't mutually exclusive, and neither is really insulting, then at most the statement is inaccruate and directed at anyone...

And last, it's dumb to argue over the definition of someone else's "out of the hat" definition. Both sides end up arguing different points, and then it takes 7 posts for both sides to figure out they all agree on the fundamental points except for the arbitrary definitions.

Seriously, I buy more music now than ever before. It's probably my single biggest "unnecessary" expense.
-Dante

I steal music because Im poor as shit, not because I dont like paying for it. If I d/l a record and I like it alot then I go out and buy it as soon as I can afford it. If its ok but doesnt blow me away or it just plain sucks then Ive saved money I could spend on other stuff. Like food and clothing for my kid. How does that make me a casual listner?

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

If you have to choose between feeding and clothing your kid and buying music, you don't have enough time to be anything other than a casual listener.

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sfbarker (June 3, 2008)

You're an idiot. A complete fucking idiot. And most likely still a child.

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

You can blow hard all you want about exposure and why you are more enlightened by stealing music, but when someone pulls out the red herring argument of "think of the children," I call it out.

Making music costs money. There are many, many ways to release music for exposure, without giving it away for free. There are album streams everywhere. Buying an Asian Man release or throwing a few bones to Quote Unquote doesn't hinder artistic endeavors. In fact, it creates a chance for more releases from more bands.

So don't give me wishy-washy appeal to emotion arguments or garbage about how all record labels are set up to milk music dry. It's ridiculous and weak.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

that makes zero sense... lower-class Americans all of a sudden don't have the ability to be anything more than a "casual listener"? i'm sorry if i don't have as $$$ as someone who spends over a hundred dollars a month on cds. i'm like the other guy - if i like the album, i'll buy it as soon as i get the money for it. if the album sucks, then i avoided wasting my hard-earned money.

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

The whole "I'll buy it later" argument is garbage as well, because the person who makes it is either lying or the exception to the rule.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

well you don't have to believe me, but its what i do. at the end of the day, i definitely prefer to have a hard-copy of music that i like, but i'm not going to waste the money i do have on albums that are either just average or completely cd. i wish i could buy every single cd i was interested in hearing, unfortunately i can't so i do my best to buy the music i end up liking after i download it. that doesnt make me a "casual music listener" - anyone who knows me in person would laugh at such a notion

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kidentropy (June 3, 2008)

I really, REALLY hope that you're being sarcastic.

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

I was being half sarcastic. I think the "think of the children" argument is a chickenshit appeal for sympathy.

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Dante3000 (rich) (June 3, 2008)

Unless you buy Wu-tang albums. Because Wu-Tang is for the children!
-Dante

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i don't know your whole situation, so i won't be too quick to judge, but i'd imagine that if you can afford a computer and an internet connection, then you can afford $12 a month to buy a cd. if not, i'm wrong. i'd also say that anybody who is worried about feeding or clothing their child should be spending less time on the internet and more time trying to figure out a way to make more money. but again, i don't know your situation, and i'm not intending to be insulting or overly encroaching on your personal life.

i've had this argument with A LOT of people, and i usually end up convincing them. a friend of mine tried to convince me once that he couldn't afford to buy music while we sat at his apt. drinking a six pack of sam adams and smoking weed. he made a choice to buy those things rather than pay for music.

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Scruffy (June 3, 2008)

If you think buying one album a month makes you anything other than a casual listener anyway, you'd better rethink.

This is a grey area folks, and the only thing I'm taking out of this conversation is that most of you criticizing this guy are under 22 and living off of mom and dad or student loans. It's really easy to in sult this guy for loving music AND loving his kid when you're young, carefree and paid for.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i'm 25, live with my girlfriend, own my own business, and will be getting married next year. i'm not "young, carefree, and paid for" i don't have kids because we've made sure not to until we're ready.

it is a grey area though, and while i don't have the numbers to back this up, i'm willing to bet that if everybody in america who downloads music bought twelve cds each year instead of downloading twelve cds each year, the industry wouldn't be having these problems.

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dlangl4 (June 3, 2008)

So if I never buy another album for the rest of my life, but listen to any of the 5 out of the 5,000 albums I own every day, I'll just be a casual listener?

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

if you've truly purchased 5,000 albums, then no, i guess not. i own about 600 cds and i have one of the biggest collections of anybody that i know.



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dlangl4 (June 3, 2008)

Haha, I'll own a lot one day but not that many. As soon as I start making money, I plan on spending massive amounts of money on music.

Still, my point is that I just don't see a relationship between "casual listener" and how you get a hold of music. In my mind, whether or not you're a casual listenor depends on how much music you listen to daily or weekly, etc.

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sfbarker (June 3, 2008)
One day, when you grow up, you'll understand the way the game works. You'll see that there is a point, when you have children, that work actually costs you more money due to child care. You have to find a point and stick there, because if you go too long, you hit a time table where you can spend more on child care than you make.

I know it sounds rude typed out, but seriously, the main lesson to learn in life is that this game we call our society was set up by those with the most and has plenty of safety nets to make sure their position is never touched. The basic needs of human life are made to be crippling to your average person, that is why the welfare system is more likely to help a mother/father of 3 who isn't doing anything and has a drug addiction over a mother/father of 1 who is working 2 jobs so she can keep up with child care, rent and a

show rest of commentOne day, when you grow up, you'll understand the way the game works. You'll see that there is a point, when you have children, that work actually costs you more money due to child care. You have to find a point and stick there, because if you go too long, you hit a time table where you can spend more on child care than you make.

I know it sounds rude typed out, but seriously, the main lesson to learn in life is that this game we call our society was set up by those with the most and has plenty of safety nets to make sure their position is never touched. The basic needs of human life are made to be crippling to your average person, that is why the welfare system is more likely to help a mother/father of 3 who isn't doing anything and has a drug addiction over a mother/father of 1 who is working 2 jobs so she can keep up with child care, rent and a car note. Somewhere in the equation, you're supposed to free up $100 a month to buy some CDs and also another $100 or so to buy concert tickets. It's not realistic.

While it is a far from ideal scenario for listener AND artist alike, it's the only way things will get heard anymore. There is too much out there, the label system is over, it will die soon. I wish it was better, I do...I sincerely do, but this is the life we have and the world around us.

In the past month, I bought 3 CDs and have downloaded a few more albums...all receive time and all receive love. I would never have heard the other 3 if I hadn't downloaded them. I wouldn't have taken the chance on them.
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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i'm 25, live with my girlfriend (will be engaged soon) and run my own business. the whole reason i don't have kids is because i'm not ready for them. its called planning.

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sfbarker (June 3, 2008)

Plan all you want, it won't make the fees any less to raise them. People plan everyday, but you can't bank on anything in the future. I know you feel like you're immune to unexpected tragedy or downfalls, but no one spends an entire life on the upswing.

I'm not trying to preach, just giving you some useful advice from someone who has been through a lot.

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

i don't feel like that all. life is full of ups and downs. that's a given. of course it won't make the fees any less to raise them, but it will certainly make me more prepared to pay those fees.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

spending 12 dollars a month makes you an avid music listener? you're delusional - try 100

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

if you have a kid and that's what you can afford, then yes. that's a shitload more than the average american spends.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

my point was that if you only buy one cd a month and don't download any other albums, its hard to make a case that you're a more "avid listener" than someone like me who buys about 3 albums a month and downloads about 6 or 7 more

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the_other_scott (June 3, 2008)

point taken to a degree. the problem is that there aren't even really people left who buy twelve cds a year. there's the super fans or the people who steal what they feel like.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

i hear ya... you're right that this occurs frequently among mainstream casual listeners (the downloading albums but not buying any of them). i think most of people who post on this website, however, are the exception to that rule, simply because we're not the same kind of music listener as the MTV crowd. you're more likely to find people here who genuinely do buy the album if they like it after downloading

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

I agree with this.

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Communique (June 9, 2008)

I dont have a computer I use a friend of mines computer, hence the length of time its taken me to reply to this. I download stuff Ive heard good things about, put it on a cd and then I try to save up for it if its good enough (FYI last record I actually bought was New Lexicon, so take that how you want to). I make enough money to live fairly comfortably and my child gets everything he wants, he ALWAYS comes first but I dont have the money to buy every fucking record that comes out. So I download to feed my passion. This in my opinion does not make me a casual listner. Thats like saying only rich people can be genuine music fans. Its bullshit.

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Dante3000 (rich) (June 3, 2008)

Your an idiot. Do you know how much kids go for on the black market? If you sold it, you could buy all the music you wanted.
Everyone wins.
-Dante

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Dante3000 (rich) (June 3, 2008)

Extra points for using "your" and not "you're". I'm not fire!
-Dante

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jacknife737 (June 3, 2008)

lawlz.

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fallingupwards84 (June 3, 2008)

i'm totally with you - if i really like the album, then i'll buy it as soon as i get the money to do so

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SydBarrett420 (June 3, 2008)

I don't buy music because the free stuff is cheaper. If you canf ind a way to stop cool, if not fuck off and stop stealing my bandwidth.

Let me cry a river for the starving musician while I take a smoke break from the double I am working to pay my bills. Fuckin babies, either play because you love it or get the fuck out of the game.

It's pretty well known that a very large percentage of people get most of their music illegally whether indie or major. Maybe that doesn't qualify as "hating" but it's damn close.

I mean, when you know that your retail dollar funds the next album from the label...don't people put 2 and 2 together?

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SydBarrett420 (June 3, 2008)

Because gas costs over $4 a gallon

. . . and neck beards.

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lintsay (June 3, 2008)

Goddamnit.

Breakfast, the band?

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lintsay (June 3, 2008)

the meal.

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royalt (June 3, 2008)

the band's better...unless you're having french toast

Where'd they poop?
-Dante

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Banal242 (June 3, 2008)

I hope there was some sort of internal conflict whether to click "Ok!" on that one.

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Dante3000 (rich) (June 3, 2008)

Hi have absolutely no internal filter. I'm not bragging, it's like an illness.
-Dante

+10 punk points for you! keep stickin it to the man!

its capitalism, pure and simple. personally, i like capitalism, just not the people who take advantage of it.

but yeah, you're completely correct.

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AdamVMS (June 3, 2008)

i would disagree that it is capitalism.

it is helping something out and trying to further a cause and hopefully maybe one day you might make money back from it, but that isn't necessarily the reason behind it.

I run a record store and now this label and I would be content doing it until I die. It would be nice to say that I am making a killing doing all of this, but we all know that it would be a gross exaggeration of reality.



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the_other_scott (June 4, 2008)

ok. its not the reason. but the reason you have a job, or own a business, is to make money. and the more people spend at your store, the more you are most likely to go out and find some hard-to-find/out-of-print etc. stuff to bring them back in.

Anything available during their tour this summer?

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AdamVMS (June 3, 2008)

nope not until september...

they just finished recording it and it will be mastered asap...

How about the new album being on vinyl? For us people who like to remember the good 'ol days of music.
-Dante

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AdamVMS (June 3, 2008)

cd first vinyl shortly thereafter

say early 09 cd will be out in septemberish

So LOL at people who buy digital music.

But physical releases have something more, artwork, booklet, and the "I HAVE this record" feeling, so I still buy them even if in most case I also have the mp3s on my computer.

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SydBarrett420 (June 4, 2008)

LOL @ anyone who buys anything that is readily available for free

same here man