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Scientist pit vinyl against CD, digital formats

Posted by aubin on Wednesday, September 23, 2009 at 1:00 PM (EDT)

Scientist John Meyer of Newform Research has tried to settle the long-running debate about the fidelity and quality of CD and digital technologies and vinyl and analog tech. The result attempts to mathematically quantify the differences in all the technologies and assigns a "fidelity" rating to each thing.

Vinyl aficionados may find the results interesting, though not completely satisfying. For example, the researcher finds that vinyl has a wider frequency range (50 khz) than CD (44.1 khz) but a narrower bitrate (12.5) than CD (16) and the result is a slightly lower overall fidelity according to the study. Unfortunately, it doesn't look like the debate will be settled by this study alone.

Check out the report and let us know what you prefer.

Games and Technology (74 comments)

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Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Seriously.

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 23, 2009)

I prefer my music at a rick 128kbps pirated MP3. It's how those in the know get the most out of their music.
-Dante

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Michael_Jackson_Jordan (September 23, 2009)

This is pretty true. If you really want to gain a huge perspective these days without putting a serious dent in your savings account, pirating is the way to experience it. I can't imagine how I would've ever become more versed in music if word of mouth, reviews and actually paying for the album in order to hear it were the only devices I was left to. That said, I buy every album I like after hearing it and my poison has always been CDs because they're cheaper and car-accessible.

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miniblindbandit (September 23, 2009)

unless it's pirated strike anywhere who record everything at 320kbps.

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Preston (September 23, 2009)

Just get one of these installed:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Accessories/HiWa y/columbia-open.jpg

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miniblindbandit (September 23, 2009)

or this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n33ACfZ45ys

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655321 (September 23, 2009)

I'm sure that you can mathmatically argue that Van Halen was better than Bad Religion. Overall, it just comes down to what you think sounds better and what you would rather listen to and have lying aroung your house.

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xIxKilledxJesusx (September 23, 2009)

um saying one badn is better than the other is a matter of opinion which the scientific method cannot validate. one can say van halen is more complex or whatever but mathematically it cannot be proven one is better than the other. sound quality, however, is a matter of fact and not opinion-- quality can be quantified, just like complexity can. Personal opinion of who you like better between 2 bands cannot. one can personally like vinyl better, but they cannot say the quality is BETTER

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tonyhoag (September 23, 2009)

I once had a goofy co-worker come up to me with a printed off speech with statistics about how Coldplay was a better band than Jimmy Eat World (his then-fav vs. my then-fav). PRICELESS!

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Banal242 (September 23, 2009)

Headline: Science Proves Vinyl is the Superior Format, Kansas Still Forces 8-Tracks on Elementary Students.

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MilesQToast (September 23, 2009)

haha

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MaxwellMurder (September 23, 2009)

...and Removes any Mention of Vinyl from Their Textbooks

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sammy_sam_saminson (September 23, 2009)

i'd prefer if scientists stuck with curing diseases and cloning day-glo kittens...there's REAL work to be done, mister scientist, get your act together!

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AmericanRiot (September 23, 2009)

he's probably an audiologist...what do you want him to cure defness?

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sammy_sam_saminson (September 23, 2009)

for starters, yes. great idea!

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the_other_scott (September 23, 2009)

it 100% depends on what I'm listening to. for older stuff - country, motown, 50s and 60s rock I'd much rather listen to vinyl. for punk rock it doesn't really matter. sometimes poorly recorded punk rock can be a bit grating on the ears on vinly.

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red_eye_inc (September 23, 2009)

A lot of that has to do with how it was recorded, or so I've heard. Stuff built to be listened to on vinyl sounds good that way, stuff produced for the digital age sounds fine like that.

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 23, 2009)

When I upgraded my set up I was spinning a Mischief Brew record and I went, "Well...This is as good as it will ever sound". It was kind of a bummer.
-Dante

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ffwoodycooks (September 23, 2009)

i dont care how many degrees a scientist has, nothing solves debates like the Thunderdome

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baldsteve (September 23, 2009)

Two Man Enter. One Man Leave

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squelch84 (September 23, 2009)

How can vinyl have a bit rate? it's analog. It's based off of wave forms imprinted onto the the actual wax. Bits are the amount ones and zeros per sample. 44.1kHz is the sampling rate, not the frequency range. It samples the 20Hz-20kHz twice plus 4.1 kHz to allow for dynamics. The 50 kHz range of vinyl means the frequency response of vinyl goes from 10 Hz to 60 kHz, which is 100% irrelevant, since the human ear can only really hear from 20 Hz to 20 kHz. Most adults can't hear over 16 kHz anymore anyway due to abuse and the natural degradation of human hearing.

Either punknews is interpreting the facts 100% wrong or the guy who did this study is a fucking moron who doesn't know anything about physics, digital technology or logarithmic mathematics.

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xchemicalx (September 23, 2009)

Slag off.

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baldsteve (September 23, 2009)

You tell em Steve Dave.

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iamnormie (September 23, 2009)

Read the article before bitching dumbass:

Converting analog performance levels to a digital equivalent involves developing bit rate (sampling frequency) and bit depth (bits per sample) from the analog data. Since the sampling frequency for the CD format is 44.1 kHz -- roughly double the highest frequency (20 kHz) it can reproduce, the analog equivalent sampling frequency is calculated to be double the highest frequency that medium can deliver. For the bit size figure, a 6dB difference in dynamic range is taken to be equal to 1 bit so an analog medium with a dynamic range of 60dB has an equivalent bit size to a 10 bit digital signal.

The bit depth times the sampling rate per second equals the number of bit per second the medium can deliver. This number divided by 100,000 for brevity is its Fidelity Potential Index. How fully the fidelity potential of each mediu

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 23, 2009)

OHHHHHH....So, that's what the matrix is.
-Dante

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Preston (September 23, 2009)

Now I know how other people feel when I talk about vibrating pocket-vagina technology.

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miniblindbandit (September 23, 2009)

the general title of "scientist" before someone's name always makes me chuckle.

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BarcodedScene (September 23, 2009)

I keep forgetting that all of the discerning listeners on this board own one of these.
http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Statement-Turntabl e;jsessionid=0a0105531f4354e4459535d043729fecd68c1d838f76.e3eSc3u Rax8Te34Pa38Ta38PaNz0?sc=2&category=347

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Preston (September 23, 2009)

A snow cone maker?

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 23, 2009)

Is it a water heater?
-Dante

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american_666_jesus (September 23, 2009)

I never thought I'd say this, but spending $150,000 on an 800lb record player has changed my life in so many ways. Thank you science.

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Preston (September 23, 2009)

How does Resignation Day sound on it?

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rob25 (September 23, 2009)

That's one hell of a blender!

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dropkicksoul (September 23, 2009)

Happy Birthday to me!

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sbit (September 23, 2009)

Are you Bruce Springsteen?

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dropkicksoul (September 23, 2009)

Yes.

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sbit (September 23, 2009)

Awesome! Happy Birthday!

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TheOneTrueBill (September 23, 2009)

Yeah, vinyl sucks! Everyone stop buying it! Vinyl smells like poo and causes cancer when you inhale the fumes! It's the more expensive format! It causes anal cancer on par with what took down Farrah Fawcett! Vinyl never, CDs forever!

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shrapnel (September 23, 2009)

my classes got canceled today cause some kids tried to bring some guns and take over the school

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MilesQToast (September 23, 2009)

did you stop them?

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shrapnel (September 23, 2009)

Luckily, I hadn't even left for school yet when I found out it was on a lockdown, but I guess the SWAT team is there right now

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nick_s (September 24, 2009)

Contrary to popular belief laziness and poor time keeping saves lives.

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red_eye_inc (September 23, 2009)

I have a pretty shanty stereo set up so I'm not convinced it matters in my situation

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minorkaty (katy) (September 23, 2009)

I'm about ready to finally give in and get a record player, but I could use some recommendations on which lower-end USB record players are best... Any advice would be much appreciated.

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Preston (September 23, 2009)

I went down that road and ended with the conclusion that USB turntables are terrible...especially considering you can plug any turntable into your soundcard with an RCA to 8th inch cable. I ended up buying a Pro-ject Xpression on eBay.

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ExtraCheesePizza (September 23, 2009)

I only listen to the radio anyway.

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DrewXFishy (September 23, 2009)

hey i got one
buy CD's

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ehx82 (September 23, 2009)

I have purchased anywhere from 2500-5000 cds in my lifetime. After having my car broken into and my cd's stolen multiple times at one point I said fuck it. I'm not buying cd's anymore. Before that, I had been a hard core defender of music rights. I would go to Media Play (not around anymore but they had an awesome selection) and spend a couple hundred bucks every two weeks. Then a few years ago I discovered a few forums and blogs that posted things that I'd always wanted to hear but never had the cash to get. Now I download almost everything and if I like it I buy it on vinyl. If that's not an option I'll buy a shirt or something else. I usually only buy cd's if its something awesome or rare. Like when I was record shopping last week I came across a Screeching Weasel CDEP that I had never heard of. It's called major label debut and was only 8 bucks, so I bought that

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

Don't leave CDs in your car?

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ehx82 (September 23, 2009)

Nope. Still haven't learned that lesson. I still have 3 books of cd's in my car right now, but I usually just listen to music on my phone with a tape adapter.

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

Yeah it's happened to a lot of my friends. Really sucks dude, I've had CDs and shit stolen right out of my room.

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

I still don't see any reason for buying vinyl except for the quaint charm. You can take CDs any where with you, play them in your car, skip a track if you don't feel like it, put the music on a mobile digital music player if you have one, etc. Logic just tells me it's a superior format because you have unparalleled convenience with a negligible difference in terms of quality.

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ehx82 (September 23, 2009)

I can agree with this, but I will just burn myself a copy if I want a portable option.

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

The problem with that is you are likely dealing with some compressed digital format, which is going to give you shit bitrate and sound noticeably worse than something like a .wav file. Of course you could just be dealing with .wavs all the time in which case you are a trooper and have my respect.

The only compressed file format that isn't going to sound shitty would be .flac (full lossless audio codec), and it's actually fairly common to see .flac albums on torrent sites.

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the_other_scott (September 23, 2009)

i'd also like to add that there is something satisfying about putting a needle down on the record player. i don't know what it is, but its nice to be involved. its fun to watch it spin in circles too.

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

I like those big plastic funnel things that they set up in malls and stuff to get you to donate to charities and hospitals and stuff. You know, you drop a coin in and watch it spiral all the way down? I used to drop a coin in and then snatch it back up right before it dropped into the center so I could do it again.

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fox82 (September 23, 2009)

He doesn't factor in how much of a pretentious dinosaur prick owning everything on 10 different colours of vinyl makes you.

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

"pretentious"
adj. 1.Claiming or demanding a position of distinction or merit, especially when unjustified.

I don't see what collecting records has to do with being pretention. I collect models of mecha robots from anime series. Does that make me pretentious or just a regular old geek?

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ehx82 (September 23, 2009)

This.

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ehx82 (September 23, 2009)

I dunno, its the same with people who collect musical instruments and things. They were made to be played or used but the person who buys it can do with it as they choose. I don't think it should cheapen your experience just because someone else has more. But I understand it makes it harder for others to get their hands on the records they may want.

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 23, 2009)

I wish I owned a pretentious dinosaur prick.
-Dante

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Mattsummers_86 (September 23, 2009)

I perfer vinyl. I have some 40-50 year oldish records that still sound crisp and don't skip, yet, most of my cd collection, which is about 2 years old, has that one song that will skip. How does that happen? I think it's my cars stereo. Oh well.
Plus, vinyl has awesome art, and fun things to watch, like the spinning colors. yeah.

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edgelife (September 23, 2009)

To be honest, it's not the fidelity that makes buy vinyl. I just feel like i've purchased more when I hold a vinyl record then when I hold a cd that's inevitably going to get lost in my black hole of a car or bedroom. Plus the colors make me happy.

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DrewXFishy (September 23, 2009)

stick w/ the coaster

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whopperforthecopper (September 23, 2009)

notice that no one is arguing for tapes

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deadXlast (September 23, 2009)

I totally mentioned it.

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Holy_Hack_Ben (September 23, 2009)

I vote for CDs cause they're shiny. Shiny things make me happy.

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Holy_Hack_Ben (September 23, 2009)

Wait, since when is John Meyer a scientist?

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mikeycot (September 23, 2009)

Really. His logic for making bit depth and sample rate "equivalents" for analog mediums is completely flawed. What sets analog apart from digital is the fact that there are INFINITELY MANY possibilities in dynamics between each of the two adjacent dynamic levels that a computer can differentiate. And likewise, there are infinitely many "samples" on tape or wax between each sample that a computer can take digitally.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a vinyl snob. This article is just completely flawed.

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donny (September 24, 2009)

they came up with cds for a reason. cds don't pop or crackle, it's waaaay easier to clean them if they get dusty or dirty and they're much easier to handle. how many of you vinyl lovers actually listen to the vinyl records not the mp3 that you stole? or like anybody could tell the difference between 50 khz and 44 khz frequency range while listening to music, bullshit. i would never buy a vinyl record if i could get the same record on cd.

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Simsimius (September 24, 2009)

John Mayer; Musician, Columnist, Philanthropist, Designer, Writer, TV Star, and now Scientist. :p

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nick_s (September 24, 2009)

The man's a talented dude.

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nick_s (September 24, 2009)

The vinyl argument is the same as buying a brand new car. There isn't a logical reason for buying it such as quality or price, some people just like it.

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bathroom_surgery (September 24, 2009)

I likes to hang da vinylz on teh wall cause they be pretty

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joshcore (September 24, 2009)

It's an interesting attempt to compare apples and oranges, but it seems a bit off-target.

They say that a higher bit depth means "louder loud passages and quieter silences", but that's not quite right (for digital, anyway). Higher bit depth means that there is a finer resolution between the loudest and quietest values. A higher bit depth is like using a ruler's mm markings instead of its cm markings, not like using a longer ruler.

"Reel to reel tape recorder" is also fairly meaningless. What kind of tape? How many tracks on the tape? Tape speed? Etc.

They say they excluded lossy sources like Dolby ProLogic from the comparison, but include mp3 (which is also lossy).

Their WAVE file examples are also odd pairings of bit depth & sample rate: 16 bit 32 kHz, 24 bit 44.1 kHz, and 24 bit 96 kHz. I would argue that the most common

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