Tell me when you broke up.

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Hasheesh (September 1, 2010)

Doesn't look like it's happening anytime soon.

No you.

They should shut the hell up.

(note the period at the end)

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equal (September 2, 2010)

Yeah, fucking punks having opinions and voicing them. That's not what punk is about! Why aren't they singing about girlfriends and shiny watches!

lame attempt at snarky reply

Dude, my neighbor's friend totally smoked pot with Ian McKaye like 11 years ago

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samthecritic (August 31, 2010)

sup baldy, fancy a toke?

I wholeheartedly agree with wishing bands were more vocal about causes they support, but personally I have been losing interest in Propaghandi at about the same rate they are getting more metal.

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Tudor (August 31, 2010)

Metal?

It's comments like that make me laugh at "punk rockers". They have the musical comprehension capacity of a bar star.

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Cos (August 31, 2010)

If he said "thrash" would you be happy?

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Tudor (August 31, 2010)

No. In what way are Propagandhi thrash? other than the self appointed label and the fact they have some thrash rifts, but in comparison to any other thrash band around, they have little in common.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

I assume you're referring to thrash revival like Municipal Waste and Skeletonwitch, but when it comes to late-80s stuff like Megadeth, Kreator and Exodus there are some very strong similarities to their last two albums. It's not ALL thrash, but the influence is very pronounced.

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Tudor (August 31, 2010)

Yeah. When I'm thinking of Thrash I'm thinking Skeletonwitch not Propagandhi. Like I said though, I agree they have some thrash rifts and influence but I wouldn't call them a thrash band. On the other hand I dont give a shit about labels that much.

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Cos (August 31, 2010)

Yes, I was referring to 80s thrash. I saw Skeletonwitch a few months ago because Doomriders were opening. Had no idea Skeletonwitch is what thrash is now (Didn't like it. At. All.). Labels evolve so fast now.

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ExtraCheesePizza (August 31, 2010)

From the first album to their latest, they definitely have incorporated a lot of metal style and influence. They've even said in interviews that as they get better at playing it, they will make future albums even more metal-tinged. So yes, metal.

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Tudor (August 31, 2010)

And do metal riffs frighten you or hurt your gentle disposition? what's the problem?

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

Metal is the fabric for the slaughterhouse machines, man.

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Tudor (August 31, 2010)

Needs more blast beats!!

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ExtraCheesePizza (August 31, 2010)

That gosh darn rock n roll is just too loud.

Personal preference is all. I'm glad they are improving and evolving as a band, just heading in a direction further than my preferred taste.

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Cos (August 31, 2010)

Yup.

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ExtraCheesePizza (August 31, 2010)

Now I'll go back to listening to nothing but the first 3 Punk-O-Rama comps and yelling at kids who step on my lawn.

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robbykills (September 1, 2010)

I always thought they (and "skate punk") sounded sort of metal, like, metal played with pop punk chords if that makes any sense. Listen to one of their old songs like "Head Chest or Foot?", "Pigs will Pay", "Nailing Descartes to the Wall", "Government Cartoons", and many more.

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kylewagoner (August 31, 2010)

I like you a lot.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

I'm actually exactly the opposite. I thought their last record was sort of tepid as a whole, but I love the direction they've taken.

you want MORE bands to be vocal with their dumbshit ideas on politics and social causes? Honestly?

Black pudding is dried blood, fat an offal. Sounds awful, tastes amazing.

shut the fuck up, blue cheese is terrible

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jimmy_jazz (August 31, 2010)

Nice bita French Brie. Just the ticket.

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nickvicious (August 31, 2010)

Sprechen sie dick?

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victim (September 1, 2010)

rhetorical question, he just said he does

All of them. I think most people say Todays Empires Tomorrows Ashes. It's a punk classic.

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theproblemwithfire (August 31, 2010)

secondeded

That's my favorite!

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Slamadams (August 31, 2010)

My fav is Less Talk More Rock, but that's probably just nostalgia talking. Empires or Supporting Caste are both insane.

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dlangl4 (August 31, 2010)

Less Talk More Rock is my favorite, is their best in my opinion, and is also one of the top 10 catchiest punk albums ever. Every second of that album can get stuck in your head.

"i'd rather be flag burning" doesn't get nearly as much love as it should. i understand that it's super raw in a way that probably turns a lot of people off, but there is no question that songs like "oka everywhere" are among their best.

One of the things I love most about Propagandhi is that every album sound different, and every album sounds amazing. How to Clean Everything just might be the weaker link in their discography, but even it's pretty good.

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kylewagoner (August 31, 2010)

It's like...for me, at least, I'm listening to a different band playing songs I really love on every album. Like they're a pop punk band to start and then they've got a heavier sound now. But none of it is bullshit or tacky.

For me it goes:

1. Less Talk, More Rock
2. Today's Empires, Tomorrow's Ashes
3. Supporting Caste
4. How To Clean Everything
5. Potemkin City Limits

but I think they all rule

Potemkin City Limits for sure.

Not at all.

Lame? Maybe, I don't think so. One thing that really bothers me, is people who cry "you're only being veg to fit in" or "because your favorite band..." blah blah elitist accusations. The way I see it, your reason is irrelevant, as long as you're not eating meat etc, then that's what matters. I don't think the animals care about scene points.

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ElVaquero (August 31, 2010)

yeah i think you hit it on the head, i was trying to pre-empt the elitist accusations. the honest truth is that i'd never really considered the ethical debates in relation to my own life. started reading the book they recommend, "Making a Killing, " and yeah there is no way you can fully understand the arguments without going veg in the end. really hope i can level up to vegan status in the coming years.

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Cos (August 31, 2010)

I have bands like Bad Religion and Fugazi to thank for spurring me to think a lot about my own ethics and politics--I don't think taking your cues from musicians you admire is wrong or strange in anyway. If listening to a band made you interested in checking something out that wasn't music-related, I'd say you're in good company around here.

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3Fast3Furious (August 31, 2010)

Listening to bands like Propagandhi years ago and reading the liner notes to records is largely what got me reading about animal rights and food politics as well. While my decision to go veg five years ago was based on careful ethical considerations, I never would have thought deeply about any of it were it not for music. Also, I love Making a Killing. While it doesn't appeal to everyone, its my favorite book to recommend to radical/lefty/punk kids who want to know more about why they should stop eating meat. Congrats on your decision and best of luck.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

Mike said: blah, blah, blah

Its lame, Mike.

More steaks for me. Good on you, man.

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returnofdebs (August 31, 2010)

needs more peta=people eating tasty animals. how original.

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veep (August 31, 2010)

I've always wanted to go veg, but I just can't give up the occasional steak and bacon.

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acris (August 31, 2010)

yes because tasty foods > moral codes

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jimmynorville (August 31, 2010)

win

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victim (September 1, 2010)

tasty food is one helluva lot >>> than sanctimony from liberal douchebages, yes.

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nickvicious (August 31, 2010)

I've heard this a lot. Nobody who says it has actually even made an effort to go veg for one day (most likely they have and not realized it).

Not lame as long as it's for the right reasons and not just emulating some band you think is rad. Read some Peter Singer and give yourself a bit stronger of a foundation than a CD booklet, though.

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ElVaquero (August 31, 2010)

well all their songs over the years never hit me as hard as chris' essay so it's definitely not an emulation thing (ew, leafs fans are not role models). and i'm definitely getting more structure from the resources they included in the notes. tying the whole thing to anarchist philosophy is what tipped me over for good

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

Color you not lame, then. Read read read.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

You must have missed the part where hes giving up meat and reading anarchist philosophy

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

Yeah, don't be veg 'cuse of a band you think is rad, read books by this rad author instead.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

Because punk bands are obviously a reliable, respected source for bioethical philosophy.

Give me a break. I actually do believe in the power of art to change peoples' minds for the better, but unless you bolster that change with actual information it's not too likely to last long. And you sure as hell won't be able to intelligently defend your opinions if, again, they're based on liner notes.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

The great thing about not eating meat, is you don't need to go to college, study abroad, do book reports and read encylopedias to know its the right thing to do. It's basic common sense, the hardest part is acceptance which can happen, research or not. If someone is doing it for the wrong reasons, and then in a few years they start eating meat again because of their own opinion, well then at least they did it for a while. Yeah, they can read all the books they want, but those slaughter house employees are on the frontline and they still eat meat.

Like I mentioned, the animals don't care about your research, your opinions, your scene points, what your local anarchist info shop says.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

I'm not against research at all, but you don't need to have research, just it isn't entirely necessary at all for the diet change.

I would rather a person lie to themselves and do it to try and emulate their favorite band for the rest of their lives, then eat meat. If they somehow think to themselves: "hey i'm doing this for the wrong reason", they will either look deeper into research, or just stop. So if their own mentality was always to eat meat, at least they didn't for a little bit. It seems a bit irrelevant.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

How the hell is not eating meat like you're biologically designed to, not using animals for agriculture like man has for 10,000 years, and not going along with the consensus of the VAST majority of society "common sense?" In fact, isn't it precisely the opposite? Sentiment like that is why people hate vegans. If you can't explain your positions objectively you're just another drone and people will never take you seriously.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

To me, not hurting things is common sense. But my point was making the jump to veg or veganism doesn't need research to understand why, being able to defend your position in debate is something different.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

For example, the friend up there said he always wanted to go veg but he likes steak too much. See, knowing isn't enough. Not everyone who eats meat is ignorant, but it's whether they accept certain things or not. That doesn't need research; the procress doesn't need it. Being intelligent does.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

That's a good example, and I shamefully consume eggs and dairy on a somewhat-regular basis just because I fucking love it. But I do think reason can be more powerful than emotion or biological imperative. I REALLY love meat too, to the extent if I didn't know what I know I feel it would be pretty damn easy to do enough mental gymnastics to go back to it.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)
Going back to the OP, I think my point is just that there seem to be so few people who can articulate objective reasons for their being vegan/veg, and that fact really harms the animal rights movement because it makes us all look like feckless bleeding-heart pipe dreamers. I may believe killing animals for food is unethical, but MOST people don't, and most vegans are totally unequipped to explain their position against that belief because they take the immorality of meat consumption for granted. A whole hell of a lot of vegan/veg people end up abandoning it, I feel, because their choice is based on emotion (which is fickle) as opposed to reason (which sticks with you). It's good that the OP is seeking to educate himself instead of just going along with what in some cases is an ultimately-counterproductive fad. One smart, combative vegan is worth 20 bandwagon-jumpers. That's all I'm s

show rest of commentGoing back to the OP, I think my point is just that there seem to be so few people who can articulate objective reasons for their being vegan/veg, and that fact really harms the animal rights movement because it makes us all look like feckless bleeding-heart pipe dreamers. I may believe killing animals for food is unethical, but MOST people don't, and most vegans are totally unequipped to explain their position against that belief because they take the immorality of meat consumption for granted. A whole hell of a lot of vegan/veg people end up abandoning it, I feel, because their choice is based on emotion (which is fickle) as opposed to reason (which sticks with you). It's good that the OP is seeking to educate himself instead of just going along with what in some cases is an ultimately-counterproductive fad. One smart, combative vegan is worth 20 bandwagon-jumpers. That's all I'm saying.
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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

Cool. And all I was saying was: No one here was arguing for or against education. This was simply about what makes one stop eating meat: there are no wrong reasons. Whether it's a band wagon or not, it will eventually lead to a real, educated vegan or veg or someone who was never going to stop eating meat even with facts. The thing is, when you argue morals with anyone who has opposing views, it doesn't matter if the vegan is legitimately elitist or not, he is pretentious. Most people who don't find it wrong, are in some sort of denial and facts won't matter.

Now let's make out.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

Kissy kissy!

I dunno how old you are, but I get the impression the veg-heads you know have more long-term dedication than those I've grown up with, so I guess I'm coming from a different perspective. I'd say from what I've seen that the rate of maintaining it from early adulthood to 25 is about 33% at most for vegetarians, with vegans at a much-higher 50%. And I really do blame that on people getting into it for sort of passive social or emotional reasons as opposed to those who are bioethical true-believer wingnuts. Then again, I've noticed a lot more folk becoming hard-core committed vegans as they approach their 30s and beyond, which is definitely cool to see, since us elderly tend to be set in our ways.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

I'm 18, but Washington DC vegans are some of the best I've ever met. I'm not vegan yet, but vegetarian. I am slowly working things out.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

I am refering to the older vegans, not my age. But even the ones my age are respectable.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

They sound like they all live in trees

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3Fast3Furious (August 31, 2010)
Yeah, I don't necessarily think that vegetarianism and veganism are "common sense", but I do think that denying animal rights shows some of the contradictions in Western ethics. For instance, anthropomorphized animals are everywhere in our culture; they sell us products, we identify with them, they're cute. Some animals, the ones who are most commonly regarded as potential companion critters, are given some semblance of legal rights and no shortage of compassion from most humans. How can we reconcile the adoration most of us feel for our cats and dogs with the deliberate ignorance of the conditions of hogs and chickens? Why did Michael Vick's dogfighting ring permanently sully his name in the public eye and cause outrage when the logic of eating a hamburger (namely, torture of animals for recreation and aesthetics) is no different?

So going vegetarian or vegan in some wa

show rest of commentYeah, I don't necessarily think that vegetarianism and veganism are "common sense", but I do think that denying animal rights shows some of the contradictions in Western ethics. For instance, anthropomorphized animals are everywhere in our culture; they sell us products, we identify with them, they're cute. Some animals, the ones who are most commonly regarded as potential companion critters, are given some semblance of legal rights and no shortage of compassion from most humans. How can we reconcile the adoration most of us feel for our cats and dogs with the deliberate ignorance of the conditions of hogs and chickens? Why did Michael Vick's dogfighting ring permanently sully his name in the public eye and cause outrage when the logic of eating a hamburger (namely, torture of animals for recreation and aesthetics) is no different?

So going vegetarian or vegan in some ways runs counter to our common sense, in some ways it resolves the contradictions that mark Western societies' arbitrary ethics with regard to animals. It's one of very few other ways to make our common sense make sense.
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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

Great points, especially the michael vick thing. I wouldn't consider ANY human diet "common sense", but morally common sense.

"Not just the ones who are cute"

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victim (September 1, 2010)

I would hate vegans even if they could explain their positions objectively (although thats actually some sort of paradox since veganism is NOT an objective position)

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returnofdebs (August 31, 2010)

i became vegan cause i figured out eating animals isn't right, but i didn't have a book or musician tell me to. how stupid am i?

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

You just happened to be born not-stupid, I guess. Most people don't have that luxury.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

very

Naw. Vegetarian/veganism is pretty cool. My girlfriend is vegan and I love cooking food with her, not sure if anybody has sought out cookbooks from Isa Chandra Moskowitz, but she knows her shit.

Me personally, as a student in a culinary program, I wouldn't even consider not eating meat until I earn my degree. That being said, my reasons for converting would also be fairly strictly health/environmental-based. Aside from my girlfriend's dog and these three cats in my house that I'm obligated to take care of from time to time, I really don't give a fuck about animals.

"Waste" by Good Riddance compelled me to start questioning eating meat. It was really something I had never considered before and I was just like "Wow, they're really upset about this. Maybe I should find out why." So one of my favorite bands was definitely influential in my decision, but once you read the literature/watch films about it, you find your own reasons.

Lame

Like you need someone to tell you yes to know its lame

if you liked that one there is absolutely no reason why you shouldn't like their other records.

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samthecritic (August 31, 2010)

that wasn't the point of my post, although Supporting Caste is the only album I've heard from them

other than nothing, fuck this band

I heard in an interview that they don't agree with PETA 100% (as nobody should) but they love the youth outreach. Which I can agree with. Maybe they aren't doing as much as Vegan Outreach in that respect, but they are doing a lot. I agree though, the naked women shits gotta go.

i dont feel like googling. care to explain?

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jimmynorville (August 31, 2010)

I believe that is in reference to all those "I'd rather go naked than wear fur" ads that basically go for getting people's attention with nudity and other things of that nature, however I have seen Steve-O and David Cross naked in those ads too.

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acris (August 31, 2010)

http://classic.feministing.com/archives/008699.html

here's a few examples of their very sexist ads

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Misanthropee (September 1, 2010)

Not that I'd ever defend PETA's tactics, but objectifying women doesn't always equal hating them (i.e. misogyny). From a marketing standpoint, female objectification tends to work, so it's tempting for empty-minded organizations to fall back on.

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Hasheesh (September 1, 2010)

Maybe not hating, but disrespecting for sure... and that's still wrong.

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acris (September 1, 2010)

It's true that it tends to work, which is sad and I really wish it wasn't that way

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Misanthropee (September 1, 2010)

Ditto.

I'm the guy who holds out hope for everyone in spite of all, but you're hopeless

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acris (September 1, 2010)

oh u

seriously. treating animals like lesser beings is bad but it's okay to demean women? oic.

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mikexdude (August 31, 2010)

Personally, I wouldn't support it. I assume, since there isn't nearly enough animal rights programs, that the band's care for other animals trumps their care for human beings. I would guess they'd have to settle with certain evils in order to give the animals the jump start since human rights is so much further head than other species.

These guys are smart dudes who have done their research, I will give them the benefit of the doubt.

The counter-productivity is what bothers me most. Other than distributing gory footage of industrial animal husbandry, it's hard to believe any of their shenanigans have changed so much as one mind. I consistently get the impression that, aside from said propaganda films, they do a LOT of damage to the animal rights movement by making people fucking despise sanctimonious vegans. So much so that the paranoiac in me almost makes me question whether they're some sort of front group for the beef industry or something.

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returnofdebs (August 31, 2010)

my gf has done plenty of peta protests and because of what she has told people about events they are about to attend they have turned away. i would say that's changing someone's mind.

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Misanthropee (August 31, 2010)

You're talking about an individual talking directly to other individuals. I'm talking about PETA the organization and its ridiculous ad campaigns, press releases and publicity stunts that do nothing more than preach to the converted while abjectly annoying everyone else.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

No one else will get the joke, but you whining about "ineffectualness" is pretty hilarious

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Misanthropee (September 1, 2010)

Dude. Seriously. Take your meds.

I am not a huge fan of PETA either... but I won't deny the fact that they've done alot of good in the past. When they started out they were all about educating people about insane animal testing and what happens inside slaughterhouses. They have provided alot of hidden camera slaughterhouse footage which, I believe, is very influential. The sexism is stupid and the whole "prey on people's insecurities" thing is also stupid but they've also done good.

I wouldn't give my money to 'em though. I prefer Vegan Outreach, Animal Liberation and *cough* the ALF *cough*.

Bring the baba ganouj. Nobody ever brings babaganouj. Oh, and daiya=is vegan crack.

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hhrules (August 31, 2010)

True I had some yesterday on a Boca burger.

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hhrules (August 31, 2010)

Chocolate Almond Milk= crack too.

According to the FBI if you are an animal rights activist you fit the description of a terrorist. www.greenisthenewred.com

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hhrules (August 31, 2010)

But I never told a single person I was going to protest the store... NOT A SINGLE SOUL KNEW IT, I never put it on the internet. I guess the point I'm trying to make is why does random bad shit always happen to me like that. I was no where the store, when the cops stopped me and told me someone called the cops on me because I looked like someone who commits crime like robs a bank.

So go back at 4am and epoxy the locks...

Ever read a little thing called the Anarchist Cookbook?

Absolutely. There isn't anything I had as an omnivore as satisfying as a 100% cruelty free meal.

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hhrules (August 31, 2010)

Your statements is why I wish the entire world was vegan or vegetarian.

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Will_StrungOut (September 7, 2010)

Satisfying because it supports the illusion of a guilt free lifestyle?

I have a memory of eating a hot dog and telling a girl, to her amazement, that I don't really care about food or get much pleasure from it and pretty much just eat food to survive, but since going vegan, I actually craze food and enjoy the taste of it.

yep. he hates you.

To the last part: I agree about the GMO's but why organic? Organic farming has much less of a negative impact on the environment than non organic does. There are no fertilizers and pesticides wreaking havoc with wildlife.

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BarleyPat (August 31, 2010)

It's not organic farming I have a problem with, just some of the information put out there by some of the zealots in the vocal organic community. Believe it or not, most farmers and scientists (excluding those working for chemical companies, for obvious reasons) would prefer to rely on as few chemical controls as possible.

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acris (September 1, 2010)

Ah I see. I tend not to associate organic farming with its movement though, that's why there was confusion.

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Misanthropee (September 1, 2010)

Honestly I think there's plenty of immediate cause for opposition to GMOs, at least in principle. Pollen can be blown into the stratosphere and distributed worldwide. Genetic engineering isn't perfect, especially when profit motives rush everything into production; it's highly unlikely but not at all impossible that some shittily-engineered industrial crop could cause a massive worldwide famine by rendering an entire year's supply (and beyond) of an essential food crop like wheat or corn unusable.

I'm being a devil's advocate, because I think most of the hysteria over all that is absurd, but it's very much worth considering.

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victim (September 1, 2010)

Acris, have you read one paragraph about organic farming or two? You not knowing what you're talking about is not just a trend, its a fucking mortal lock

You wanna lecture people? Step one is to know something, so come back when you do.

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acris (September 1, 2010)
Haha. Chemical pesticides and fertilizers are one of the leading causes of water pollution. Surface runoff causes these chemicals to get into the water supply and righteously fuck it up. Obviously pesticides just poison the creatures (including us) but fertilizer is a little bit more complicated. Fertilizer normally has a lot of nitrogen in it, which causes things to grow (duh). When it gets into the water, it makes plants grow at ridiculous rates. A good example of the hazards of nitrogen runoff is algae blooms. When fertilizer from runoff and algae mix, this causes the algae to grow to levels so extreme that it severely limits the amount of sunlight in a body of water. Seeing as plants rely on sunlight to live, this obviously kills the plants in that specific body of water, which leads to a diminished food source for the creatures that rely on these plants, and the ones who eat

show rest of commentHaha. Chemical pesticides and fertilizers are one of the leading causes of water pollution. Surface runoff causes these chemicals to get into the water supply and righteously fuck it up. Obviously pesticides just poison the creatures (including us) but fertilizer is a little bit more complicated. Fertilizer normally has a lot of nitrogen in it, which causes things to grow (duh). When it gets into the water, it makes plants grow at ridiculous rates. A good example of the hazards of nitrogen runoff is algae blooms. When fertilizer from runoff and algae mix, this causes the algae to grow to levels so extreme that it severely limits the amount of sunlight in a body of water. Seeing as plants rely on sunlight to live, this obviously kills the plants in that specific body of water, which leads to a diminished food source for the creatures that rely on these plants, and the ones who eat them, etc etc etc food chain blah blah blah.

Seeing as organic farming is all about not using these chemicals, the damage is definitely a lot less severe. There's still surface runoff, obviously, but it is better to cut off a thumb than a hand.
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victim (September 1, 2010)

Organic farming is NOT all about not using those chemicals. Its a scam targeting the most gullible people on the planet -- yuppies like yourself (and buppies and all the rest, so don't try to play the "I'm not even white!" card). Organic is LESS regulated, less scrutinized and in all likelihood LESS safe than conventional farming techniques. In fact, its not even truthfully so much a type of agriculture as it a label that can be conveniently slapped on just about any product (or do you seriously believe you can document how "organic" produce was grown in Mexico/insert country of origin)

For starters you might like to check out this article (for starters, mind):

http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/organ ic.html

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publichousing (September 1, 2010)

You're pretty presumptious aren't you?

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jamesfix (September 2, 2010)

Nah man that article totally changed my mind. What were we all thinking?

"On a related note, the organic/anti-GMO crowd has virtually NO idea what they are talking about and are 95% full of shit. At least 50% are fucking retarded"

Please elaborate and enlighten us with your insightful knowledge.

Why can't we make the connection here?

Because there is no connection, dumbass

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publichousing (September 3, 2010)

Why not? Because you say so, gringo?