Katie Crutchfield (P.S. Eliot) offers her take on sexism

Posted by bryne on Wednesday, May 4, 2011 at 1:00 PM (EDT)

In I Live Sweat's latest column on sexism in the punk scene, Katie Crutchfield of P.S. Eliot offered her take on the issue. Here's a quote:

"We're small and we're specifically weird and the fact that the simple idea of treating all people with equal respect is warranting a shitstorm of hyper-masculine cold-shouldering and hate-typing is fucking ludicrous as far as I'm concerned. Acknowledging a giant zit on the chin of our tiny punk rock commonality does not have to be a witch-hunt. It doesn't have to be a big blame game or an excuse for some ex-JV benchwarmer with an X watch to make me, Lauren, the Two Funerals or anyone else the butt of some defensive, awkward and outlandishly counter-productive joke. It doesn't have to be a war, a battle or even an argument. It just has to be a conversation."

Read the entire essay here and as always, give us your thoughts in the comments.

Bands in this story

P.S. Eliot

News (313 comments)

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Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not respon sible for them in any way. Seriously.

loveshackbaby (May 4, 2011)

Great.... We can have the exact same discussion again. There's also racism, homophobia and all kinds of other shit in the scene. Why don't we spend our time discussing ways to combat these issues too?

ExtraCheesePizza (May 4, 2011)

No one's stopping you.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

this

xbat-mitex (May 4, 2011)

I believe that total world annihilation could solve all these problems once and for all. It just comes at such a hefty price.

loveshackbaby (May 4, 2011)

You know what I mean. I just think it would be more interesting if these essays were about more than just sexism. We could talk to a band like Whole Wheat Bread, where the majority of people called them a band with a gimmick, just because they were black. We could talk to someone in the 'Queercore' scene about how hard it is for bands to get acceptance in hardcore just because they suck dicks. Sure sexism sucks, but we don't have to have every single woman in a band tell us the same things.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

I hardly know anything about Whole Wheat Bread so I could be off, but I believe that they have been known to "play up" the fact that they are black. I mean, I've seen someone wearing a shirt from them that said something like "I love black people". There's nothing really wrong with it, but it is fairly gimmicky feeling.

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

This. I've been to a lot of their shows living in florida over the past ten years or so, I think they are fun as hell to see live and have a great sound for a pop-punk band, but they do talk about "getting crunk" and call attention to the fact that they are black. But at the same time, I don't think it's wrong of tehm to be proud of being an all black band in a scene where there are very few people who represent them.

CCSummers (May 5, 2011)

being proud to be black is not a gimmick you piece of shit

wtfkc (May 7, 2011)

So what's being proud to be white?

vischypunt (May 16, 2011)

racist, apparently.

ExtraCheesePizza (May 4, 2011)

Good idea. Do some interviews.

I don't want to be dismissive, nor do I think it's anyone else's agenda to be dismissive of other issues within our scene. Sexism is just one that has fallen to the wayside as a widely discussed topic. It may seem redundant to us as regular readers, but how many people haven't read the other articles? None of these topics should just be dropped.

bryne (May 4, 2011)

Yeah, either these discussions aren't being had or they're just not being presented to us. We'd post them. To complain about the lack of discussion without offering to initiate said discussion seems counterproductive.

And Mr. CheesePizza is right. Don't assume all of our readers caught the other essays. The majority of our readership has never and will never even look at the comments sections. This is always a discussion worth having.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

These aren't with band folks, but there are a few essays I've read recently about racism within punk and metal. I feel like I've read others in the past, so I'll try to dig those up as well.

http://www.hipmama.com/node/1979

http://www.racialici ous.com/2011/02/09/being-a-poc-in-the-metal-scene/

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

I talked a bit about this one somewhere downthread, it's a great read. Lester Bangs' The White Noise Supremacists: http://www.mariabuszek.com/kcai/PoMoSeminar/Readings/BangsWhite.p df

JerseyPunker (May 11, 2011)

To stand up together for a common cause and bitch about issues til we get something done about them is kinda sorta at the heart of punk rock, no? Kinda what punk bands use their positions to do? We all bitch about the issues that matter to us most, and for most these are ones we experience firsthand. So-whether in bands or not-expect if not encourage women to bitch about sexism, people of minority races to bitch about racism-including white people in areas where they're the minority, Jews to bitch about antisemitism, black, atheist, communist, culturally Jewish, cross-dressing, cross-eyed, transgendered, lesbian, disabled veteran, amputee, ESL*, immigrants to bitch about being discriminated against-in English, Yiddish, Hebrew, AND their native tongue(s)-if they're being treated differently bc they're different from the majority, in this case the entire human race. Women in bands are in a pretty unique position to speak out about the mistreatment they endure, considering the sausage-fest that is the rock music industry as a whole, and to pass on that opportunity would be doing a disservice to their half of the human race. Sexism is a problem, and whether we're among those who typically suffer it or those who typically commit it, we ALL have an obligation to keep on bitching about it, singing about it, writing about it, protesting it, spreading awareness-including reminding people that it is STILL an unresolved issue, and that sitting back and ignoring it is just plain wrong. In summation, we don't need to hear less women-in bands or otherwise-bitching, we need to hear more women and more mistreated people in bands join these women in using their position in the public eye in raising awareness of the problems of all of these -isms.
Thank you very much, you've been a lovely audience, good night.
*English second language

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

I don't see too much racism to be honest. I can see where you're coming from, because the majority of people in the scene are white, however, I've yet to see someone of another race discriminated against at a show or in the scene, unless you count the bad brains who only have shit talked about them due to the other issue you mentioned which is the homophobia. I do see homophobia as an issue, but I think a lot of that goes hand-in-hand with the sxism discussion. I realize all of my points in this paragraph have been very vague, but I'm not in the mood to cite anything specific.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

It's hard to find racism when 99.5% of people at any given punk show are white.

Make_Way (May 4, 2011)

I'm glad I'm factored into that .5% of the crowd. hahahaha

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

English pound symbol

drHankMcCoy (May 4, 2011)

we should hang out more

PaulPendley (Paul Pendley from Red City Radio) (May 4, 2011)

Uhh, that demographic is exactly where you'd find racism.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

How so? I don't know about you (and I dunno what it's like in the OKC), but I don't go to too many shows where the local opener is some dipshit skinhead white nationalist band.

PaulPendley (Paul Pendley from Red City Radio) (May 4, 2011)

I don't mean at shows. I mean that, generally, when you have a 99.5% white demographic you're more likely to find racism then a mixed demographic. Ignorance and misunderstanding breeds contempt.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

Ah ok. I was referring to punk shows specifically.

CCSummers (May 5, 2011)

it still applies.

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

Is it really racism though? Do we have some unwritten rule that black kids, hispanic kids, asian kids etc are not welcome in punk rock or is it just a matter of there being very few people in those groups that enjoy punk rock music?

PaulPendley (Paul Pendley from Red City Radio) (May 4, 2011)

Again, not talking about the racial makeup of the scene per se, I'm just find it funny that Matt would state that a predominantly caucasian demographic would make it hard for racism to take root.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

i was referencing just seeing/hearing racist actions and remarks at shows. Racism almost never comes up because there's almost no one in the scene to be racist towards? I'm sure I'm wording this terribly.

skolarx (May 4, 2011)

looks like i guessed that one correctly

the_other_scott (May 4, 2011)

totally disagree. most racism isn't directed right at people of other races, but is directed towards people of the same race about other races. i hope i worded that well.

skolarx (May 4, 2011)

i would think his statement was more to the effect that its harder to notice racism if there isn't anyone of color for the racists to go after, talk about or whatever specifically they would do towards the people they have something superficial against.

the show i went to last night had 4 bands, 3 of which had black bass players and was also put together by a black promoter. Shawn does stand out though, i think he is the only black guy in Detroit not promoting hip hop shows

PaulPendley (Paul Pendley from Red City Radio) (May 4, 2011)

I knew what he was saying. And it's a good point. I just thought the wording was funny and made a joke, albeit a poor one, to that effect.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

Jokes aren't allowed in these kidns of threads.

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

.5%! I'm more underground than the underground!

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

Exactly. I guess some people may argue that that, in itself, is racist, but I think it's just a matter of cultural differences in musical taste.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Yes, there are DEFINITELY problems with racism, homophobia/heteronormativity, etc. I completely agree, and we need to be talking about those as well.
But to be act like, "OK, we've talked about this enough! Let's change the topic!" when it isn't yet fixed, and people still have something to say, is pretty dismissive and just shows the rest of us that there's still a lot of work to be done.

There are days I get sick of having this conversation about sexism in the scene as well, because it's what I'm living and sometimes I just don't have the energy to get into it... But it's still a problem, and a few essays aren't going to (and haven't) fixed it.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

This.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I agree with all that, I just think having the discussion about society at large is more productive. It's not like punk has some sort of constitution or governing body you can change to make the scene more gender-inclusive. With the constant turnover rate, new blood coming in and the old guard dropping out, punk will always demographically reflect the outside world no matter how hard we try. Want to combat punk rock sexism? Start with sexism itself, period. It's important to talk about it within the scene, but, well...you know how many punks it takes to change a light bulb, right?

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

The problem here is that it's much easier to combat a mindset on a smaller scale. I mean, it's much easier to have a discussion and change the perspective of your group of friends through multiple arguments and long term attitudes. It's a lot harder to stand up in front of a bunch of random strangers and yell, "Look at this! This is a problem! We should change it!" and still have them take you seriously. It's much easier to start with what we know (i.e. the punk scene) and change the attitudes there, then attempt to build that change out in to the rest of our society.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I think I'm not so much talking about punks attacking the roots of sexism in society at large as I am about recognizing that it's the same issue and trying to cultivate a more practical understanding of sexisim as a social phenomenon ultimately rooted in biology. For example I feel like there's a pervasive and abiding refusal in left-leaning counterculture to accept that women and men ARE different, in many ways. Too many people (chauvinists and feminists alike) hold thoughtless, reactionary attitudes toward sex and gender that prevent anything from ever getting accomplished because nobody's dealing with reality. Clinging to utopian ideals about pure sexual equality usually does nothing (at best) to foment real, practical changes to sexual oppression.

ilivesweat (May 4, 2011)

There's a piece on racism and white privilege in the scene forthcoming. It's on it's second draft at the minute.

I've talked to one or two people about putting together a piece on homophobia, but nothing has materialised as yet. That's something I intend to remedy when the things I do that pay me money leave me to time to get on with the punko stuff.

Likewise transphobia. There's a few people I'm talking to about putting some stuff together, but nothing is ready to go just yet.

Thanks for the feedback, and making such a good point. Trust me, I'm on it.

Andy

skolarx (May 4, 2011)

i hadn't thought about this until now but i might have a couple of friends who could shed some light on the sexism and racism within the scene from promoters perspectives. most of the good punk shows in Detroit are either booked through Black Iris Booking (owned and run by a woman) or Silent Films Booking, who is a black guy. I know a year or two ago Shawn was having trouble getting money he was owed from a local bar and had all sorts of "nice" things said to him and i remember when Ramona was getting off the ground how she was having a hard time being taken seriously by some booking agents.

ilivesweat (May 5, 2011)

If you could put me in touch with them that'd be rad. Email is ilivesweat at gmail.com

Andy

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Have you read Lester Bangs' The White Noise Supremacists, because that's an amazingly well written and intelligent examination of racism in the early New York punk scene, and a lot of what he says about it is still pretty relevant today. And there's a beautiful single sentence paragraph near the start that I always try and keep in mind when discussing pretty much anything.

ilivesweat (May 5, 2011)

I haven't. Is it up online anyway? Sling a url toward ilivesweat AT gmail.com if you've got one.

snowcobra (May 4, 2011)

But can she shred?

Jay3313 (May 4, 2011)

This is at the bottom of the post:

"Katie Crutchfield is a writer, musician, and college dropout living in Brooklyn, NY. She writes, plays and tours in P.S. Eliot, Bad Banana and Waxahatchee and has a knack for drunken blogposts and covering Sam Cooke songs".

Kind of a dick move on the part of the blog, don't ya think? Mentioning the whole drop-out thing and a "knack for drunken blogposts" seems a little an attempt to destroy some of the credibility of the person who just wrote a long post.

Just sayin'...weird.

Heathbar (May 4, 2011)

I'm assuming she wrote that bio in a humorous fashion. I smiled.

the_other_scott (May 4, 2011)

I'm guessing she provided that description. She could have just said "Katie Crutchfield is a hipster." and it would have made the same point.

jingle (May 4, 2011)

A hipster never admits to being a hipster, but you're correct nevertheless

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

But what if a hipster knows that, and so says they're a hipster to allay suspicion. Oh fuck, quantum hipster mechanics!

Although I did once meet a guy who was so uncomfortable with the term hipster he honestly claimed it was analogous to the n-word.

Douglas_is_rad (May 6, 2011)

It's half-way through 2011 and people are still using 'hipster' as a put-down?

NobleStabbings (May 6, 2011)

It's half-way through 2011 and people are still using 'hipster?'

rockypenguin (May 7, 2011)

It's half-way through 2011 and people?

ilivesweat (May 4, 2011)

Katie wrote that. :)

snowcobra (May 4, 2011)

But can she shred?!

marcjbannes (May 5, 2011)

great editorial, funny self-description. thanks for using your site as a vehicle to talk about important topics and start discussions, especially when some people aren't comfortable having them. also, PS Eliot get a nice write up in the new Loud on the A.V. Club's website.

ilivesweat (May 5, 2011)

I also use it as a vehicle to talk about bands that write songs about eating fish and chip suppers. But cheers.

Andy

Half_Idiot (May 4, 2011)

Three things, since I know this post will stir up a bunch of arguing again.

1) Every Bill Paxton line from Aliens - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qrjFuTbl_SA&feature=player_embedde d

2) Whenever I see the name Crutchfield I automatically think about the detective from The Wire.

3) Still don't give a single shit about Jawbreaker and the amount of texts I've gotten/videos of that one song with today's date in it posted on Facebook are only re-affirming that.

Cheesetits (May 4, 2011)

Game over man.

Half_Idiot (May 4, 2011)

They're coming out of the goddamn walls!

bastard_squad (May 4, 2011)

Bill, do this one for me. No Facebook today.

Half_Idiot (May 4, 2011)

But how else will I get news of the Cheap Trick/Mariachi band collaboration out? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AJkZDJ7qkw&feature=youtu.be

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

How does she have internet access? Is there a computer in the kitchen?

ThisMikeisaPipebomb (May 4, 2011)

bro, this is the 21st century....it's called wireless

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

The only wireless thing a woman should own is a bra.

drunkwithpower (May 4, 2011)

you are on fire

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Wireless bras are the worst! What's the point of even wearing a bra if it's not holding anything in place?

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

I dated two different girls with B cups who insisted on wireless bras. Going to Target and feeling every bra on the rack for a wire, while helpful and a total supportive boyfriend thing, is probably not the best way to avoid becoming a registered sex offender.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

so, that would explain how someone who is a supportive boyfriend mistakenly became a registered sex offender, but what did YOU do?

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

Apparently jerking off in the back of a windowless parked in front of a pre school is frowned upon, EVEN IF THE KIDS CAN'T SEE YOU.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

windowless van*

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

I kindof liked the shorthand 'windowless' It sounds australian.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

I guess it depends on how much support they need and/or if they've been fitted before? I've heard people say that they can't stand bras with wires in them, but it's because they've never been properly fitted. A well-fit underwire bra is comfortable. One that DOESN'T fit properly, though, isn't that comfortable... But neither is an improperly fit no-wire bra.

punkrockwritergirl (May 4, 2011)

I'm not wearing a wire on my chest unless I'm paid by the FBI.

fourtyfour (May 4, 2011)

As a girl in both punk and hardcore (as far as my own observations go), the people creating more problems with sexism in both scenes are the women that separate themselves. Katie is calling out a bunch of 15 years olds on a hardcore message board for being sexist, and while they may or may not be, they are 15 years old. If she's so concerned with a 15 year old boy's opinion she needs to get her head on straight.

The more she speaks about being a woman in a male dominated music scene, and the more she completely separates herself, the bigger of an issue she is creating. If you just step back, and stop being so self righteous by being a woman and just become a person in scene then the problem is going to dramatically decrease. People are going to now associate this girl with this sexist argument, and it's hard to take her seriously. I don't think punk or hardcore is the underlying issue, I think it's 1) society (there's sexism everywhere whether you like it or not) and 2) people taking things way too seriously. Just shut up and enjoy yourself. Has she never heard of homophobia in punk or hardcore?

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

1) I can't be sure, but I think she isn't so much concerned with a 15 year old boy's opinion as she is hoping to "inform" or "educate".
2) Obviously punk and hardcore aren't the underlying issue - obviously they don't create sexism themselves, but the whole point of this series is that the scenes act progressive and act like a place for forward thinkers and such, yet sexism is still prevalent
3) I don't believe people taking themselves too seriously is the underlying issue in sexism, although people might need to lighten up in general, I find it hard to believe that people taking themselves seriously is what needs to be fixed and what is the cause of all this.

ExtraCheesePizza (May 4, 2011)

"Just shut up and enjoy yourself" is not an option. Every time these articles have been posted, every single woman who replied has stated in one way or another that they have experienced sexism in some form. That is absolutely not ok. Especially within our scene.

bryne (May 4, 2011)

When something for which you care so deeply and have devoted your life to is being ruined or compromised by hatred or ignorance, it's hard to just "shut up and enjoy yourself." If anything, it's not being taken seriously enough.

There's no self-righteousness involved when someone's experienced humiliation and sexism in that context.

gretagabbro (May 4, 2011)

"The more she speaks about being a woman in a male dominated music scene ... the bigger of an issue she is creating."

Good. That's a good thing.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Oh internalized misogyny at its finest! How I don't miss having those feelings!

I'm a lady as well, and have been involved in punk and hardcore for a pretty large chunk of my life by this point. About 5 years ago, I would have agreed with you.

Fact of the matter is, though, the "shut up and put up" mentality didn't make things better for me. I went to hardcore shows, hung out with all the dudes, but still got a lot of flack for being one of the only ladies there. They made it clear, no matter what we were talking about, who we were seeing, etc. that I was NOT one of them, and I was there for their entertainment. Being "one of the guys" didn't stop me from being made fun of for liking hardcore and having boobs. It didn't stop me from being groped by some random asshole I don't know when I'm just minding my own business, watching a favorite band. It didn't stop the dudes talking shit about the girls who got into the pit at shows (who were also "one of the guys"). Blending in with the guys I thought (at the time) were friends didn't actually make shows any better or more enjoyable for me than they are now. I'm still friendly with tons of people at shows, but I feel more confident to stand up for myself and not take shit from people. I still don't feel as safe as I should (or as safe as I'd feel if I were a straight, white, cisgender guy at a show), but I feel safer now.

I don't think she's all that concerned, specifically, with what a 15 year old is saying on the B9. She's just upset that punk is SUPPOSED to be a progressive movement, but has the same problems with sexism that the rest of our society has.

acris (May 4, 2011)

aznpersuazn (May 5, 2011)

see, I just don't know how I feel about this... I can relate to you and the post you responded to.

I still feel this "alienation" that you speak of quite strongly sometimes during shows, and it really breaks my heart in some absurd way... as long as I can remember, I've had such a hard time accepting the fact that I'm female because 1.) mentally and socially I don't feel like I identify with any specific gender whatsoever 2.) gender seems to fall into the equation at least 90% of the time I'm being judged, somehow. It usually goes excused by me because, well, women are "different" from men or usually desire to be treated differently, I guess. And I feel especially odd compared to girls I know who attend shows around my hometown... so it makes sense that men might not know how to treat me and/or judge me. My instinctive reaction to this usually involves this creepy emotional urge to be everything un-female.

Part of me feels as if this "fading into the mix" or "not making it obvious that I'm female" will help me feel more welcome within my male peers... and it has in some ways. For example, the band I play in is not fronted by anyone in particular, but even if I did front it, I would be hesitant to label it "female-fronted" for any reason besides describing our sound... I guess because I don't want gender to come into the equation at all when someone stumbles upon our music. It's sort of the same reason I was hesitant to post photos of our band everywhere--I want a listener to hear the music and just the music. This has helped me feel more welcome in certain aspects--since genders are not made obvious in my band, I feel as if less people "care" that I'm a girl. To me, this is awesome. I don't want the fact that I'm a female to be a spectacle... especially since I feel so mentally un-gendered myself.

However, this emotional "bagging of my head" (that's what it feels like to me sometimes) doesn't erase the fact that I'm a woman and a minority within the "scenes" that I drift between. Of course people are going to make me a spectacle, at times. It would probably be the same--or worse--if I was apart of some other minority. Some people are going to look at me weird. Some people are going to expect less from me. Some may objectify me. Many will make jokes, which is probably the least of our worries. Some might just be scared to talk to me. To some socially constrained men, women are basically alien creatures. Whatever the reason, and however much I empathize with the perpetrators, it still sucks to feel weird and alienated, especially within the surroundings I care about the most, doing what I care about the most. I really wish I could say I knew where to go from here, within this post, but I don't. Because I still don't know how to be or how to act or how to feel. If anyone could give me any more answers than this, I would really love to know, and I'm not being ironic at all...

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

Ignoring a problem doesn't make it go away.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I've actually noticed VERY little overt sexism in the discussions here about these essays. Most of the debate is civil and nuanced, which you couldn't say about 99 percent of other boards -- especially music ones. Imagine the shitstorm of hate and misogyny articles like this would cause on Blabbermouth.

Consequently I have a feeling she's calling out the "15 year olds" not for sexism, but for not agreeing with her 100 percent.

kylewagoner (May 4, 2011)

The girls who go to shows here and who are in bands that play here...they don't seem to make any deal about it at all...but maybe we're different because we live in a small city. However, with my ex as a prime example, the only people she feared at shows were other girls who would try to start drama and stupid bullshit...but that's neither here nor there. I've played in a band with a girl since I was in 7th grade and never thought twice about it. It's just a normal thing here and there's never been any issue raised. It's like...if a guy sees a girl he likes regardless of if she's in a band, if she's not, if they're at a show or not, he's gonna act how he's normally gonna act. I don't even know what I'm trying to argue, I'm just saying that there isn't really an issue from the shows I've gone to.

renton (May 4, 2011)

Is she IN the band or WITH the band?

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

I realy hope she keeps her shirt on.

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

http://i54.tinypic.com/2wdogn4.jpg

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

Pizza and Black & Tan for lunch? Pizza and Black & Tan for lunch.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

You mean the kind from the cans?

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Laura Stevenson's?

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

bam

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

I ain't got time to mix it all together.

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

you've gotta lotta irons in the fire, fella

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Mean people suck.

xbat-mitex (May 4, 2011)

All Bands Suck

chipsahoycookie (May 4, 2011)

Soooooo.........gentlemen, would ya?

ilivesweat (May 4, 2011)

Laugh at you, not with you? I already am doing, pal.

fresnoska (May 4, 2011)

"It doesn't have to be a big blame game or an excuse for some ex-JV benchwarmer with an X watch...."

Starting off with insults of her own and wants to be taken seriously? Shut your mouth.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

are you an ex-JV benchwarmer with an X watch or something?

fresnoska (May 4, 2011)

Guilty as charged. Never got the call to get in the game.

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

I was varsity, bro.

wallrock (May 4, 2011)

I was varsity too, but that's only because eleven people went out for baseball that year.

nick_s (May 6, 2011)

Cultural divide moment, what the fuck does any of that mean.

Ravnos (May 6, 2011)

JV = Junior Varsity. High school and college sports, basically.

thesidekicksuicide (May 4, 2011)

I started reading the article up until that point....not exactly productive to start off with insults and stereotyping.

edgelife (May 5, 2011)

She contradicts herself within this sentence! This sounds like the blame game to me.

I agree that there is room for this discussion and that it is important for the punk scene, but jeez, you're only alienating more people with "jokes" like that.

skaboom (May 4, 2011)

I'm not sure if it's that the women being interviewed on this subject are getting better at explaining their positions, that the comments left on PN are becoming more intentionally offensive, or some combination thereof, but I'm starting to see Katie, Mariel, and Lauren's point.

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

It's only so often we can read the same essay before we whip out the Henny Youngman jokebook.

"My wife, she'll buy anything marked down. Last week, she brought home an escalator!"

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

All of them have made legitimate points that need to be discussed, and have been at length in a usually intelligent and articulate manner, or if not in at least a semi-amusingly stupid manner. I do think that Katie and Mariel were much more nuanced, powerful and eloquent in their arguments, but that's not because it's a concerted unified development of the same position, it's just because they're better writers with a more nuanced position on the subject. Lauren can take comfort in the fact that she's too busy making better music than the other two to properly develop her positions.

It might be a mistake to keep posting all these at the same time because it means that people will burnout on it, or can dismiss it as a punk rock flavour-of-the-month rather than an ongoing and everpresent issue, but I guess once you've posted one article, you can't say that other similar articles from musicians of a similar stature aren't similarly newsworthy, because they do all have slightly different and personal takes on the subject. I think ilivesweat should probably make it a more occasional feature.

ilivesweat (May 4, 2011)

But that would involve ME writing stuff, and I'm lazy!

Honestly, I disagree. Amongst the myriad stories of new videos, new albums, break ups, Brokencyde running out of hairspray, and dudes with beards being drunk, there's been three of these. Three. That's not a huge amount over a few months, to my mind at least.

I appreciate the point you're trying to make, but this is too important an issue to put to one side, for fear of boring people with it. If anything, the feedback has only gotten more positive over time, as people are invited to consider the issue from more angles.

Haanz (May 6, 2011)

Who's writing the next one, if you don't mind me asking?

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

Depends which one pops into my inbox first, to be honest. We're not working to deadlines, so they really come out as and when people have time to write, and I have time to edit and post. :)

Andy

StaceyFitz (May 4, 2011)

"...these impotent messageboard cyborgs are scared shitless that there are women out there who are more productive, talented and capable than themselves."

10/10

Heathbar (May 4, 2011)

If I could generate feelings, they would be stoked for artistic women.

nyk3 (May 4, 2011)

Katie y u no have college degree?

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

Reddit? In MY punknews.org?

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Keyboard cowboys.

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

Tits or GTFO

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

OMG liek u just hate Nickelback cuz they sell lots of records, I'd like 2 c u write a hit song

See, I can do fallacies too.

StaceyFitz (May 4, 2011)

oh, totes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oC7Q6BNvg6E

eatdogs (May 4, 2011)

i'd like to hear gwen stefani's opion on this matter...

heck, also ask the following:

ke$ha
lady gaga
katy perry
madonna
rhianna
taylor swift
britney spears
beyonce
avril lavigne
christina alllggguullleeerrrrriiiiiaaaaa
cheryl crowe
lia loeb
cher

skolarx (May 4, 2011)

i fell asleep during a lisa loeb show once. i was there to pass out fliers after the show, insanely boring

gwen and maybe katy give that she has done warped tour would be the only ladies on that list qualified to comment on the state of sexism in the punk community. just sayin'

eatdogs (May 4, 2011)

your not "in" on my joke. my lame attempt at a joke...

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

My wife had her credit card stolen. I haven't reported it missing because the guy who stole it spends less than she does.

Cheesetits (May 4, 2011)

Wacka wacka wacka

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

What do you tell a woman with two black eyes?

Nothing, you've already told her twice

cheesecakemafia (May 4, 2011)

wow.

at least i hadn't heard matt's before and actually smiled.

try harder.

alwaysoffended (May 4, 2011)

So you "smiled" at a sexist joke? Not only that, you're ENCOURAGING someone else to "try harder" at making their jokes even more sexist? Disgusting.

cheesecakemafia (May 4, 2011)

thank you for not not smoking.

acris (May 4, 2011)

violence against women is hilarious?

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

What do you tell a woman who has been systematically abused, physically, mentally, and psychologically, by a partner, often a husband, for a period of months, years, or sometimes even decades? What do you tell her about the mental and physical scarring she could be left with for years to come, if not her entire life? What do you tell the children whose earliest memories of their parents are of unprovoked violence and degradation? What do you tell the daughter who spend a childhood listening to her mother cry softly in another room, long after her father left?

Seriously, what do you tell them? Or have you not got a punchline for that one?

jman83 (May 6, 2011)

You tell them to get ready for the new season of the real houswifes

bill_stickers (May 4, 2011)

Her name sounds like that of a disabled porn star.

acris (May 4, 2011)

i was unaware that there was something wrong with being disabled or a porn star

bill_stickers (May 5, 2011)

I never said it was wrong buddy boy, I was just making an observation. Carry on.

alwaysoffended (May 6, 2011)

Don't you think porn objectifies women?

acris (May 8, 2011)

women in porn choose to do so, and trying to restrict their actions is just another form of misogyny

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

there's no such thing as women. you sheep probably believe in dinobots and the hulacaust as well.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

A lot of hula hoops died in the Hulacaust, you heartless bastard. Think of all the the children that went without the simple joy that is an over-sized plastic ring just because someone thought they were an "inferior" toy.

skolarx (May 4, 2011)

what's a hulacaust?

about 5 bucks at walmart

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

haha.

rockypenguin (May 7, 2011)

8/10

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Most men probably aren't "sexist" in a way detrimental to women, but when given a forum and an opportunity they will make sexist jokes. Doesn't mean they are going around doing an Andrew Dice Clay impression in real life...just on the safety of the intranets.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

Why does that make it ok?

bill_stickers (May 4, 2011)

In case you hadn't realised coffee_kid, a lot of humour runs off being light heartedly mean about someone else. Just because I make sexist jokes, doesn't actually make me think women are not as good as men, however much some people try and tell me it does. In fact, sometimes I make racist jokes (between white friends, and sometimes between asian and black friends too if I know it will go down okay) but only on the grounds of them being FUNNY, not actually HATEFUL.

People who can't make this distinction are far worse for society.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

While I'm not going to say that you're wrong (a lot of the humor that goes on between my friends and I is based on being unrelentingly mean to each other), this attitude is also creating a nice haven for sexism/racism/homophobia to hide out in. It's especially telling by the sheer number of these jokes that show up from one or two people on a thread like this. One off jokes I understand. Light hearted somewhat sexist jokes I understand. But scrolling through the comments on the last three articles like this, I see about 3 user names making about 10 sexist jokes a piece. Anyone else glancing at the comments is going to be able to say, "Well, I'm not as bad as these people. My attitudes must be ok," even if they aren't.

I'm also not saying that all humor of this kind should be stripped from message boards and vocabulary of everyone who's ever associated with the punk scene ever. I think an occasional sexist/racist/homophobic joke is fine, even funny. But not for the sake of the joke itself. It also opens up a line of dialogue that can be used to educate and inform, or at least share opinions. The previously-mentioned scenario of 30 jokes from 3 people doesn't really allow that dialogue. Any attempt at it just turns in to feeding the troll. Basically, I'm sick of people using the, "But it's just the internet!" excuse for being blatantly and unrelentingly ignorant or bigoted.

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

So if I look up the post above...are you a Neo-nazi? An anti-Semite? A racist?...
No, you were making a joke, filled with word play and puns, but the gist of the "joke" was about the holocaust...

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

I also didn't make seventeen more racist comments throughout the rest of the thread, or refuse to talk civilly about any problems someone may have about the joke. That's the kind of joke I would make in my everyday life, in front of anyone I knew was Jewish, if given the same set up. Like I said, my problem isn't with the jokes themselves, it's the sheer number and our callous attitude towards them being made because it's "just the internet".

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Most likely the people that are making the harsh, over-the-top, blatantly sexist/racist/ whatever-ist jokes and that are not willing to have any sort of intelligent dialogue really are jerks. Internet's doesn't hide it.

Folks trying to make witty comments, quoting shows/movies, jokes that the hypersensitive may deem as "-ist" jokes, but a majority of folks see as a one-liner, sarcasm, double entendre etc.

So, is Michael from The Office sexist? Yeah, yeah, he's not real, but is his character a sexist?

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Context and tone account for a lot...and that's not always perceived on the 'net. She even cracked a "stereo-type" joke. JV benchwarming...implying that the guys making jokes are losers and unsuccessful. As people we love to categorize things, music, movies, people. It's a survival instinct - brother gets eaten by lion. lion=bad. I don't need to see a tiger do the same thing, so we categorize big cat=bad. Women are people, men are people. Men are the majority and have the power (except when it comes to sex) so jokes are made...as long as a man isn't preventing a woman(or anyone) from living their life the way they want to (as long as they aren't hurting anyone) I say jokes and comments done without venom are A-O-K.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

You said it yourself, context and tone account for a lot and it's hard to perceive on the internet. You know the jokes YOU make are harmless, but how do you know the jokes the others are making aren't made with venom? Simply throwing an "I kid, I kid" at the end of the comment doesn't necessarily mean you really do. It's too easy to hide behind the mask of the internet and take no accountability for what you type.

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

Because like you said, it's the internet. There's nothing to be taken seriously on the internet in a forum setting.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

not even THREATS with a BOMB to KILL the PRESIDENT of the UNITED STATES!?!?!?!?!

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

Now you've just been added to the database!

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

I also don't see how that makes it OK. I'm really sick of this "but it's just the internet!" argument, but if I get into it right now, I'd end up writing a whole essay.

All I'll say at the moment is that the things you say, no matter the forum or medium, DO matter. Just because someone is reading and not hearing it said to their face, it doesn't change what's being said, and the impact can be just as (if not more) troubling. Words don't change meaning just because they're typed instead of spoken.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Yhbt

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

Blah Blah Blah....

If you can't take the sexism, grow a cock

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Clearly I CAN take the sexism, as I've been dealing with it for a few DECADES, since the day I was born. But just because I can take it doesn't mean I don't have a right to complain, and it doesn't mean I shouldn't try to change it and make the situation better for everyone.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I can't believe you took the bait on that one. Surely you don't believe he ACTUALLY expects you to grow a dick.

The "sexism" on boards people keep complaining about is 99.9 percent meaningless trolling.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

That's my point though... it's not meaningless. That may be the intent, but intent doesn't count for much when no one else is aware of it, or at least not the people your comment is targeted at.

If this wasn't what women heard ALL the time in a non-joking fashion, maybe I'd have laughed. But people have really said these things to me, and most women, and meant it. So when some stranger on a message board "jokes" about it, it's really just obnoxious and I see no reason to laugh at something that isn't even funny.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

He's not telling jokes, he's trying to get you to respond angrily so he can chuckle at all the energy you put into your response compared to his thoughtless one-liner. I don't doubt you've experienced stuff like that in real life and that it's been genuine. But that's not the case here. Don't feed the trolls.

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

My original point is that most men aren't "sexist"...of course there are some that are and some that take the jokes too far or with malicious intent. If most people are in a group setting with friends (and some may view this as a that) comments and jokes are made. Some good, some bad, some go to far. But I highly doubt SydBarret420 is an asshole 24/7. Although, he might be.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

I agree that most men aren't sexist, and I don't think I've ever in my life called a person-as-a-whole sexist. But most people (men AND women) have done or said sexist things that they weren't aware were problematic. I've said shit that I wasn't aware was problematic, and been called out on it or gotten someone else's perspective, and changed for the better. Clearly this kid knows what he's saying, and gets that it's not cool, so he's probably a lost cause. But he's not the only one reading this thread, either, ya know?

Nothing's going to change if people don't point out when someone says or does something sexist (or racist, homophobic, etc), especially when the person who says it doesn't realize it's a problem until someone else speaks up. It's all about getting perspective and realizing the bullshit you've internalized that you didn't realize was screwed up, and fixing that.

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

I like you. You like me? Let's make-out...

And there ya go...obvious dumb joke...but I felt compelled to write it...I don't think it's sexist...or particularly funny, oh well :-)

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

People forget, in these public trolling situations, that other people are also reading. IDGAF if this jackass is laughing at me, or anyone else, but just because someone's "trolling" also doesn't make it OK when, again, most women (myself included) have also had to deal with this kind of shit in real life. Just writing someone off as a troll doesn't make the shit that comes out of their mouth/keyboard OK. It's constant microaggressions that tell women they don't belong, either because we're women or because we "can't take a joke."

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I definitely wasn't saying it's OK, just that you should recognize it as a separate phenomenon to misogyny and not be tricked into wasting time and energy tilting at windmills.

Don't let the oppression you've experienced turn you paranoid. Become hyper-reactive to everything and you lose focus.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Honestly, I don't understand how "it's just a troll" means it's not misogyny... But I have little tolerance for trolling, always have. I don't see that changing any time soon.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I've noticed you're particularly fond of putting words into the mouths of others...

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Calling trolling and misogyny separate phenomenons is what I was getting at...
I see what you're saying, but most trolling I've seen wouldn't work so well if it didn't rely on sexism, racism, homophobia, etc.

eran_zombis (May 4, 2011)

I'm really sick of this "but it's just the internet!" argument.

Agreed 100%.

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

While I'm broadly with you on the point that the anonymous trolling culture is not really something that's gonna lead to the sort of intelligent debate that we might hope to illuminate our culture with. I really can't agree with "Words don't change meaning just because they're typed instead of spoken." Words change meaning based on hundreds of different variables. Context is massively important. You can't boil down a statement to one single objective truth, based either on intent or content, if you could the sprawling theatre of literary criticism and its many conflicting and overlapping schools would not exist, and also we probably wouldn't be having this conversation. Words change meaning depending on who's saying them, where they're being said, when they're being said, who they're being said to, and dozens of other things. These words you're reading right now would change meaning depending on which font they were in. Put them in comic sans and it'd be conducive to a different reading.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

I had a hard time trying to figure out a succinct way to type that sentence, honestly, because you're right... And I guess my phrasing didn't do my point any justice because there was no subtlety to it.

Context matters, I concur. But I think more than anything, who you're talking with- and your relationship to them- probably changes that context more than your mode of communication, which is why the "it's just the internet!" argument bugs me so much. Dealing with random strangers on the internet, who you don't have any kind of real rapport with, it's a lot harder to read into their intent and their meaning. All you have to go off is your own interpretation of what they're saying, and how your own experiences relate to it, not any kind of relationship/ inside jokes/ etc that you have with them. You can't hear (and have never heard) their tone. Yet I also have one friend who says the most ridiculous things just because he knows it'll bug me and get an eyeroll, but because I know him, and because I can have serious conversations with him about these same topics, and I know he's doing it JUST for an eyeroll, it doesn't bother me.

I don't necessarily think words change meaning depending on context (except words that have different definitions in different contexts), but the implications words carry do change with different people. Does that make sense? Because I do agree with what you're saying.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I don't think you really get the point, though. Nobody's trying to rationalize trolling or flamebaiting. Nobody's saying "it's just the Internet," you're the one interpreting it that way.

The Internet changes EVERYTHING, that's the issue. The Internet IS a context. What's occurring here is not analogous to a real-life conversation. As a much smarter person than I once said, the medium is the message.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Maybe it's just that I've heard "it's just the internet" so often, so any statement that resembles that vaguely is what I see.

Regardless, yes, the internet IS a context. I'm not trying to say it isn't. What I mean to say (and what I have definitely failed to say, my fault), is that just because something is said on the internet, it doesn't necessarily lessen the impact it has. A sexist or otherwise bigoted comment on the internet doesn't automatically sting less than in person, and it doesn't automatically influence anyone else less.

I guess it just ticks me off because it's the same people who troll online that do it in person, in my experience. So it's hard for me to separate the two, and see them as separate things, ya know?

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Hrm, I'd actually argue the opposite: Most trolls and dedicated flame-warriors I've known in real life have been either the polar opposites of their Internet personas or way too meek and introverted to ever express their hate offline. I definitely get your point though, this sort of stuff just involves topics very close to my heart and my professional life so I feel obliged to pick at minor inconsistencies. In spirit I'm with you all the way.

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

I definitely agree with the idea that your relationship towards someone is massively important to the context of things like this. I remember getting really pointlessly angry at an extremely literal stringently feminist interpretation of Firefly which took lines from the inter-character banter out-of-context and claimed it was encouraging rape, when it was really just about the horrible things you can say to your friends that not only can be said because you're friends, but also play an really important part in building and reinforcing a relationship, the idea that you're safe with these people so anything goes. The most obvious example of the change in meaning would be something like the reappropriation of racial or sexual or societal slurs as a badge of pride or a term of endearment. Even the word punk was originally an insult. Here I think we're agreeing, just disagreeing on the meaning of the word meaning, which is really up its own arse and we should both just stop.

I think there's something to be said about the weird public/private nature of internet forums, because while a lot of them are open for anyone to read, people who frequent those forums do build up relationships and personalities within the forum, that someone who comes from outside and reads it is not going to be aware of. Now, I don't really want to spend enough time on the B9 to learn individual posters so I am probably just going to judge them purely on their words at face value if I encounter them, just like you would, but I recognise that they're part of something bigger and that they do carry some nuance and baggage to somebody who's more involved in the community. Now, maybe someone more involved is in a better position to judge, or maybe that person is going to be blinded by their own proximity to things, but I think what I'm reaching for is the idea that while what people say matters, it matters in wildly different ways to different people. Maybe it's related to the way Jim Davidson stole a joke from Jimmy Carr, but Jimmy Carr does this postmodern ironic take on the old-school mother-in-law/her-indoors routine, whereas Jim Davidson is genuinely of that 70s working men's club sexist/homophobic school of comedy. To someone who doesn't know either of them, it's the same joke and the people laughing at it are laughing the same way, but to someone who knows the different personas and different audiences, they're worlds apart.

This is sort of a similar issue to prospective employers judging someone on their facebook account, something isn't unimportant because it's on the internet, but similarly not everything on the internet is a carefully constructed public statement. It's often just friends being friends and all the attendant harmless ribbing and annoying drama that that entails.

Regarding the community being based in misogyny and ironic detachment, I always think of the b9 is like a slightly less wild (there always do seem to be people determinedly taking things seriously, although who knows if they're just being sarcastically serious), more breakdown-oriented 4chan, which itself has its own level of discourse, this anonymous endlessly regurgitative, angry, indignant, LCD, caustic, horny, stupid, though still somewhat studied, juvenile snarl that seems to steadfastly sticking to the Hassan-i-Sabbah "Nothing is true, everything is permitted" position, meaning that its own determinedly nihilistic lack of philosophy is in itself a philosophy, maybe not one you agree with, but it's just a way of looking at the world, of interacting with others, which, like I said is going to mean that everything is read a different way depending on your own way of looking at the world, of the tone of the circles that you yourself move in.

Okay, I'm really rambling now. I'll shut up.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

Sometimes I wish I could just "like" comments here on PunkNews.
Anyway, I agree with what you're saying, and having been a member of a number of message boards in the past, you definitely can feel out personalities and do build relationships and inside jokes. What I was getting at, though, is the casual reader who maybe doesn't have a feel for that, seeing the same comments without the nuanced understanding of the rapport between people... It's kind of like jumping into the wrong part of a conversation, where you can take away REALLY weird, sometimes screwed up things, and that can either turn you off or offend you, or validate something bigoted that you believe, because you don't realize the others are joking.

Not that I'm the best at policing everything I say online, because I'm definitely not, but it would just be nice if people put a LITTLE more thought into what they say on public forums, instead of just offending people for the sole purpose of laughing when they get pissed off about something they have to deal with all the time.

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Agreed, and that's why I'm not into forums where that's the dominant tone.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Mostly agreed, though I think you're overlooking the fact that some of the stuff we're discussing here is actually sort of a bizarre, emergent form of performance art. There are entire subcultures based around methodically pissing people off now.

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Oh definitely, that's what I was trying to get at with the bit about 4chan at the end. I think it's really interesting on that socio-cultural level, it's just not something I myself have an interest in being a part of, so I'm not. Like jazz, chess or swinging.

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

don't most jokes fall somewhere under the umbrella of defensive and counter productive?

mattramone (May 4, 2011)

One of the few worthwhile recurring characters on SNL was Cinder Calhoun, the Lilith Fair stand up comedian.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

all my why did the chicken cross the road jokes come out of my fear of chickens getting the right to be on whatever side of the road they want to be on.

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

Something tells me none of these chicks have been dicked down right in a long time.

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

This won't end well

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

never trust a hippy

nickvicious (May 4, 2011)

No woman care's to be "dicked", and I imagine especially not by you.

letmycamerongo (May 4, 2011)

I'd say this is the type of comment people should be drawing attention to. This isn't a joke, it's not clever, it required no wit or intelligence to make. You may justify it as some sort of means to get under peoples skin or whathaveyou, but really you just suck. And I have a feeling you haven't "dicked down right in a long time".

acris (May 4, 2011)

exactly

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I have a feeling the last time he was dicked down, it was by a family member.

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

Oh man, Carlton and Will are trying to get into a fraternity, and Carlton can't get anything right!

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

Please aks my permission before you quote me, Kenneth.

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

At the frat house party, Carlton asked if hey had any Rod Stewart records. OH BOY!

k-dubs (May 4, 2011)

juat watched this episode as well, ends so serious!

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

Make like a banana and SPLIT.

sharksareokay (May 4, 2011)

only goofy looking chicks are complaining

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

Exactly, most anger on topics like this is a direct result of either:

A) Lack of a good sex life

or

B) Being treated badly by a significant other at some point.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

It's amusing but sad the assumptions people make about feminists...

Though I don't see the problem with becoming a feminist because you were treated badly by a partner. Partner abuse and violence against women is an epidemic that affects so many people, not a "personal" problem, and it's one of the big things feminists care deeply about.

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

This, even though this is just going to feed this troll. It's sad when pertinent thoughts get lost in a sea of trolling.

minorkaty (katy) (May 4, 2011)

I gave up caring AGES ago whether or not I was "feeding a troll" when these conversations are public.

sharksareokay (May 4, 2011)

this cunt is speaking out her ass. I guarentee that all she's really trying to do is gain some hype from all the lame ass modern feminists with that same hair cut by bitching about something that is a legit concern but no where near as serious as these sluts are making it out to be. I refuse to respect the stance of someone preaching gender equality when they are sexists themselves. FUCK DAT HOE.

cheesecakemafia (May 4, 2011)

sounds like someone's outta muscle milk.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

more like "outta badger milk" - that's right I just said that guy is like Rob Schneider in "the Animal"

xherojuanax (May 4, 2011)

Derogatory name-calling, stereotypical perception of feminism, and trivialization of truly legitimate concerns, yet she's the sexist? Congratulations, you have about as much empathy as Rush Limbaugh.

Brittisrad (May 4, 2011)

Feminism appears in all genders. Feminism isn't just women hating on men. Feminism is the unified fight for gender unity, equality and safety. Feminism isn't a stereotype, no matter how hard you try to make it one. I feel like feminism and punk rock have many of the same core values. So, as punk rockers, I say its time we start acting with some accountability and integrity and truly believe that those values of punk rock that we hear in all of this music, is transferred into our actions and interactions with others.

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but 'cunts', while containing many splendid things like labia, clitori, ovaries, and the like, don't have asses. If you're after the rectum, look round the back. Maybe if you had a fundamental understanding of female anatomy, women wouldn't confuse and frighten you so much?

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Yeah, this is the anti-Dworkin argument, and while I'm no great fan of her, it's fucking stupid to wholely dismiss someone's positions on the basis that they're 'only' based on personal experience. Everything we do is based on personal experience and while it's important to try and see things from other positions or understand other points of view, the core of our beliefs are going to be based on how we view the world, which springs from how we've interacted with the word. I love punk rock because of my personal experience. If someone was to tell me I should step outside myself to properly consider its position in the wider artistic scheme of things and realise that compared broadly to jazz or classical, it's a petty, immature, untalented, silly little genre that I should just grow out of I'd tell them to fuck off.

IHaveNoFriends (May 4, 2011)

This.

SydBarrett420 (May 4, 2011)

Studies have show that since the creation of the feminist movement the percentage of meatloafs cooked in US homes has decreased by 17%.

At the same time, the percentage of men who fap in the darkness of their bedroom to reddit threads with the acronym NSFW in the title has increased by 9.2%

cheesecakemafia (May 4, 2011)

nobody gives two shits and a fuck.

nickvicious (May 4, 2011)

I fap in my meatloaf and bake reddit.

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

"So when the doorman at my show thinks that I'm someone's girlfriend and won't believe that I'm playing in a band, well, that makes me feel unsafe."

Why do they have to be a doorMAN? Maybe they're a door PERSON. Ever think of that? Sexist.

jingle (May 4, 2011)

By god this man.. er.. woman.. person, has a point. Shocking.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

"When I'm patronized by my male peers in conversations about Nirvana and Hagstroms and obscure guitar tunings, that makes me feel unsafe too."

Wait...what? That is some grade-A narcissism right there. Either she's complaining about being talked down-to by other musicians, which all musicians do to each other regardless of sex, or she's implying that being a serious musician SHOULD be the domain of males. I absolutely sympathize with the overall sentiment, but that's just nutty.

RondoMondo (May 4, 2011)

I could see her being annoyed, but unsafe? What the hell?

mikexdude (May 4, 2011)

Narcissism confused for radical politics? Shocking...

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

So much this.

acris (May 4, 2011)

men often try to prove their superiority through showing that they know something more than women, it's called mansplaining. in the world of music, mansplaining and one-upping comes in the form of knowing about gear. it's rooted in the idea that men always are supposed to know how to fix things and how they work. they're trying to show that they know more than her, thus they belong, and she does not.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I agree, and I'm familiar with the idea, but I think this is a rare case when it's an unjustified complaint. I'm a pretty competent male musician who is thoroughly tired of getting "mainsplained" at when it comes to gear and technique and theory. It has nothing to do with men mistreating women, it has to do with men being drawn obnoxiously to fetishes like that. See also: Sports, video games, computer programming, cars, carpentry, engineering.

mikexdude (May 4, 2011)

Now I have to feel bad about being a nerd. : (

acris (May 4, 2011)

you can't be mansplained at, you're a dude. it's an interaction inbetween men and females, in which men are patronizing and condescending. men aren't drawn to certain fetishes naturally, it's society telling them that they should be. it's like men expecting me to be interested in cooking because i have a vagina; men are expected to know about that sort of stuff. a lot of dudes don't know shit, just like a lot of chicks can't cook. the interaction i'm talking about here is reflective that women are in the wrong "zone", that it's a man's playground because that's what men are interested in and women just cannot ~get it~.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Are you a musician? I don't think YOU "get it," then.

It's possible she was experiencing sexism. If so, that's deplorable. But what any objective person who plays an instrument would assume -- being that it's the FAR more likely possibility -- is that her oppressors were just being normally pretentious gearhead men and she was misinterpreting that as condescension based on her sex, as opposed to condescension based on the fact she was simply another human being they could yammer at.

Fine. I haven't ever been "mainsplained," at because I don't have a vagina. But I'd be willing to bet that, in the case she was referencing, she wasn't either. Because at least half my interactions with other musicians involve people telling me how or what I should play or who I should go to or order from or why I shouldn't be talking to this promoter or how the mix is wrong and the producer has a bad rep and on and on. Ask any male musician and you'll hear the same story. Of course they probably the same thing to everybody else too, as I most likely also do without realizing it. Maybe I'm doing it right now, in a way?

Regardless, sometimes, guys are dicks to women not because of misogyny, but BECAUSE GUYS ARE DICKS. You're a smart lady, you can piece that together. And don't even start, because if you were male I'd have called you a smart dude.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Also, hasn't it been pretty definitively established anthropologically that a lot of the bullshit showing off men do is essentially a secondary sexual characteristic? I think they ARE drawn to specific fetishes like that; there are always nuances, but I think it's fairly apparent there's a biological component to some of that. Note I should have included hunting and boating into the previous list.

jingle (May 4, 2011)

"So when the doorman at my show thinks that I'm someone's girlfriend and won't believe that I'm playing in a band, well, that makes me feel unsafe."
Unsafe eh, the fuck? Maybe annoyed, but unsafe...?

But to be honest, this is a repeat of the pervious essays we have seen over the past few months. Nothing new here folks, move along

sharksareokay (May 4, 2011)

modern day feminism is only a means to sell shit from The Northern Sun catalog.

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

I can't wear short shorts and I want to.

This is sexist. Please make a newspost on punknews.org about it.

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

Also me and MattRamone will run a train on any punk chick on the East coast if she's up for it.

check out our dating profiles on STDmatch.

EngiNERO (May 4, 2011)

Brooklyn hipster describes how unique she is...In other news Bin Laden claims he is still alive.

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

At least PS Eliot is good.

mystereohasmono (May 4, 2011)

News to me.

ExtraCheesePizza (May 4, 2011)

I think the whole point is that her complaints of sexism are not unique to her at all.,

megalife (May 8, 2011)

She's actually from Birmingham, Alabama.

teenfreakshow (May 4, 2011)

You know when you're young and your mom tries to tell you not to bother an antpile because "they're more afraid of you then you are of them"?

Isn't that bears?

coffee_kid (May 4, 2011)

Bears are more afraid of me than I am of them? I AM A BEAR DEMI-GOD.

I'm pretty frightened of bears, is what I'm getting at.

punkcdsampler (May 4, 2011)

Why the fuck would a bear be afraid of you?

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Just because they're gruff and scary looking on the outside, doesn't mean they're not a twink at heart.

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

Was never warned about bearpiles, but they're my number 17 worst fear.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

no, that's serial killers

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Wait, people are afraid of ants?

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

My grandma said this about black people once.

Racist old people.

holy_balls (May 4, 2011)

i had a giant zit on my chin once. that shit was so sexist.

Babrook (May 4, 2011)

I had this huge bump right above my shaft and I noticed it shaving my balls the other day. I figured it was an ingrown hair so I started trying to pull it out. Turns out it was a zit and I bet I could have filled a dixie cup with all that pus.

holy_balls (May 4, 2011)

i just filled a dixie cup from reading that. mmmmm.

ZachLeg (May 4, 2011)

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://omgif.gosedesign.net/ wp-content/deal-with-it.gif&imgrefurl=http://omgif.gosedesign.net /&usg=__JhPiLHadMMbWYBW9kKb6lG6akOQ=&h=240&w=380&sz=38&hl=en&star t=0&zoom=1&tbnid=wqkujIa5ivXhaM:&tbnh=158&tbnw=220&ei=kazBTfqEHor 1gAflo7H3BQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddeal%2Bwith%2Bit%26um%3D1%26hl%3De n%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26sa%3DN%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla: en-US:official%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D681%26tbm%3Disch&um=1&itbs=1& iact=hc&vpx=138&vpy=144&dur=159&hovh=178&hovw=283&tx=233&ty=50&pa ge=1&ndsp=16&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0

DutchBrian (May 4, 2011)

Don't call me male, Don't call me male

The connotations wearing my nerves thin
Could it be semantics generating the mess we're in?
I understand that language breeds stereotype
But what's the explanation for the malice, for the spite?

Don't call me male, Don't call me male

I didn't choose this gender, I was born
Circumsized, categorized, allegiance sworn,
Does this mean I have to take such shit
For having a penis? No!
I ain't a part of no conspiracy,
I'm just you're average Joe.

Don't call me male, Don't call me male

Represents everything I hate,
The soap shoved in your mouth to cleanse the mind
The vast majority of sheep
A buttoned collar, starched and bleached
Constricting veins, the blood flow to the brain slows
They're so fuckin' chauvinistic male

Don't call me male, Don't call me male

We're better off this way
Say what you're gonna say
So go ahead and label me
An asshole cause I can
Accept responsibility, for what I've done
But not for who I am

Don't call me male, Don't call me male

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

There's already a NOFX song about feminist attitudes in the scene it's called "Kill Rock Stars".

xherojuanax (May 4, 2011)

That song isn't so much about feminist attitudes as it is in response to Kathleen Hanna's accusations that Fat Mike was a misogynist.

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

True. Good point.

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

Can you point to a part of this series that attacks a person or persons simply because they're male?

On a side note, what's the deal with American lads getting circumcised as kids? I get why Jewish and Muslim parents get it done, but why everybody else? The foreskin is covered in nerve endings, and nerve endings on genitalia can be pretty fun.

DutchBrian (May 4, 2011)

I'm not going to try to tell you that I'm different from all the rest.
I've been subject to the same de-structure of desire and I've felt the same effects;
I'm a hetero-sexist tragedy.
And potential rapists all are we.
But don't tell me this is natural.
This is nurturing.
And there's a difference between sexism and sexuality.
I had different desires prior to my role-remodelling.
And at six years of age you don't challenge their claims.
You become the same.
(Or withdraw from the game and hang your head in shame).
I think that's exactly what I did.
I tried to sever the connections between me and them.
I fought against their further attempts to convince a kid
that birthright can bestow the power to yield the subordination
of women and do you know what patricentricity means?
I found out just a couple of days/months/years/minutes ago.
It means male values uber alles and hey!
Whaddaya know... sex has been distorted and vilified.
I'm scared of my attraction to body types.
If everything desired is objectified then maybe eroticism needs to be redefined.
And I refuse to be a "man".

minorkaty (katy) (May 5, 2011)

Hell yeah, Propagandhi!

foldskool (May 4, 2011)

This isn't a joke, but who are all these dudes taking of their shirts at shows? I'm not arguing against her or Laura's point here. But in 20 years of going to shows in DC, in hot basements and community centers and all kinds of dirty, nasty, hot spaces, I never once, EVER saw a dude take of their shirt. Where is this happening?

Also, Two Funerals, AMAZING!

cheesecakemafia (May 4, 2011)

you're lucky. there's very little worse at a show than getting shoved into a nasty sweaty shirtless dude.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

You have obviously never been to Fest or any other show in Florida.

notfeelingcreative (May 4, 2011)

Obviously not. I don't think we're allowed to wear shirt here.

foldskool (May 4, 2011)

Sadly, no, never been to The Fest.

nickvicious (May 4, 2011)

Outdoor shows and festivals even I take my shirt off sometimes. And it's nothing sexual it's just hot. And if it's dusty you can tie your shirt over your mouth to keep the dust out...and convince people you're nekkid Al-Qaeda.

jimmynorville (May 4, 2011)

wouldn't an outdoor show be less hot than one in a basement? I'm legitimately asking. Where are the org heat-scientists?

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

Obviously, depends on where you live and time of year and day. Arizona, midday, summer...it's hot. (yet, I still don't take my shirt off...something about my pasty doughy physique isn't something I like to flaunt). Most "basement" shows here have some sort of fans/ac.

nickvicious (May 4, 2011)

Exactly, I'm in AZ so it can be 110+ at shows, even hotter if it's, say, Warped Tour and you're standing on asphalt. I have no problem showing off my pasty torso to the world. Besides, Arizonan men spend so much time by the pool with no shirts on. Pasty white chests are as common as anything.

loki13 (May 4, 2011)

I'm in AZ too...just got a house with a pool...maybe my stupid Irish skin will develop some color.

Ravnos (May 5, 2011)

It'll develop a colour all right. Red. And then it will peel off in a painful and disgusting manner.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I remember seeing the Ergs in a basement in Chicago one week in August and thinking nothing could ever be hotter. Then I saw Boris at 2pm at Pitchfork a week later; one of those crazy heat waves where it's pushing 102. I was sick for a couple days after; my vague memory of the set is sort of like that Simpsons episode where Homer eats the insanity pepper.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

Hrm actually maybe this was all in July. Stupid heatstroke.

nickvicious (May 5, 2011)

Awesome episode! And his spirit guide coyote or whatever is Johnny Cash!

mahalfy (May 4, 2011)

She is right on when she talks about how punk is supposed to call out the bigots.
It's sad we have sexism, racism, homophobia, and other issues in the punk community, but it is our reality
How can we call out society for these problems when we have the same problems in spades?
These are the conversations we should be having.
Anyone who thinks she is a "bitch" or "cunt" should really evaluate how those statements betters the community as a whole or themselves personally.

Ignoring an issue does not solve it.

nickvicious (May 4, 2011)

Exactly. I thought punks were all about fighting oppression. Sexism IS oppression.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

In defense of this thread, only two or three people have used words (or even sentiments) like that.

mahalfy (May 4, 2011)

Point well taken, those people are obviously dismissable trolls but, a lot of the comments in this thread quickly dismiss the issue of sexism and Katie Crutchfield's points, which one could argue is far worse than calling someone a name.

In the end this issue will never be resolved until people change themselves. There is not mandate or a plan in the world that will make people in the punk community less sexist, racist, or homophobic. One can only hope that conversations, discourses, and dialectics might change one person's attitude/mindset.

letmycamerongo (May 7, 2011)

I'm not sure people's positive reactions really dismiss Katie. I for one am in almost total agreement with her, but only because she points out things I not only recognize in the scene but also in myself, in every day. Now I would really hate to think that I am a sexist, but have I acted in a sexist manner before? Sure! Have I made a female feel uncomfortable because of the way I've acted? Probably! I think the fact that we've all (mostly) had a positive reaction to Ms Crutchfield's points does not diminish them, but instead is a good sign that people are realizing their own faults and mis-steppings, which is exactly what these essays are calling for. These women aren't burning their bras or calling on anything radical at all. Just for people to call into question their own actions. I know I've fucked up, and am sure lots of others have as well. I just hope people are gonna try and be a little more thoughtful after this.

IHaveNoFriends (May 4, 2011)

You know what makes me feel unsafe? The fact that when a woman speaks, people are actually listening.

mahalfy (May 4, 2011)

You know what makes me feel undafe? Ignorant statements.

mahalfy (May 4, 2011)

*unsafe

IHaveNoFriends (May 4, 2011)

I apologize.

Myself being a hyper-masculine, cold-shouldering, hate-typing, ex-Jv, cavemanish, cyborgish , creepy inhabitant ; don't have the knowledge to comprehend the holiness that is the crystal clear commands of "radicals".

Perhaps when I lie castrated, beaten, pissed on, and dead in a shallow grave all you "progressive" thinkers can huddle around and sing subjectively bad songs about how great equality is in your new world.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

What a strange little window into your psyche this post is.

IHaveNoFriends (May 4, 2011)

I would be fearful of those who claim they have anything but a little window.

mahalfy (May 4, 2011)

No one is trying to castrate, beat, piss on, or kill you. Just asking to treat you fellow human being with the same respect you expect. BTW how is that request radical?

I would urge you to ask yourself if the statement like "You know what makes me feel unsafe? The fact that when a woman speaks, people are actually listening." truly benefits you or the human race.

IHaveNoFriends (May 4, 2011)

The request isn't radical, the author of that essay/article claimed she was though.

It benefits me because I think the joke is quite funny. I learned how to be a good person and treat people with respect many years ago. I just think its not a good thing that people can write essays and have opinions that are so stereotypical / critical / overbearing and there is a call to be some sort of standard bearer on what has been said. I am not offended but one someone calls me out on actions I did not commit and things I don't think well I am not going to give a dignified response and will treat it like the joke that it is.

That being said, any sincere improvements are always taken into consideration, I am on the same page with good guys and gals who are thoughtful and help out when they can.

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

I think it is a good thing that people can write essays and have opinions that are stereotypical/critical/and/or/overbearing.

thermonuclearwarrior (May 5, 2011)

Fuck you, hippie.

MikeMoak (May 5, 2011)

your face is a hippie

mahalfy (May 6, 2011)

word

letmycamerongo (May 7, 2011)

No one called out your actions in particular, instead the actions of some (probably a fair few males) in the the punk community. The fact that you are so vehemently against these essays show that you probably have been a perpetrator and therefore have gotten defensive. How can you possibly say, none of these things have happened? If you haven't seen them happen, then simply say, "I haven't seen these things happen". That would be much better than the sexist comments you made instead.

drHankMcCoy (May 4, 2011)

"We, as punks, as anarchists, as free-thinking, coffee-drinking, Black Flag-loving, well-read, well-articulated, over-stimulated punks, are supposed to be the progressive ones. We're the people who call out the bigots. We're the people who embrace the differences in each other. We're the weirdo loner geeks who endlessly support the other weirdo loner geeks. Gender, race, age, sexual identity and any other trivial or biological property should draw no lines between us."

That made me feel good.

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

eh. some. maybe a slightly greater percentage than the general populace. Feels a bit pollyannish/commencement addressy/self important to me. Sure if you're a weirdo loner geek you're going to support other weirdo loner geeks. Not a terrible amount of nobility to that.

drHankMcCoy (May 4, 2011)

I see you, but I always liked lofty writing like that. And I think the things we do with these lofty ideals stretch beyond our weirdo loner subculture, so there's a responsibility in that "slightly greater percentage". I don't know where I was going with that, but it IS terribly noble to be a punk. Receiving society's evil eye for bucking the system while holding the moral high-ground? Respectable.

Misanthropee (May 4, 2011)

I'm down with lofty ideals, but if you're going to be self-important you gotta have the prose to back it up.

"Well-articulated" kind of killed that little vignette for me. Oh the irony.

sketchyjoe (May 4, 2011)

Maybe she just means she's got a back-end like a lorry? There are plenty of parallels between hip-hop and punk rock, this could be another one.

milesqtoast (May 4, 2011)

let me get this straight, you want to vote, AND not be marginalized?

singthblues (May 5, 2011)

Screw this sexism bullshit. Come to Buffalo, tons of females in the scene up here, and this summer the 2nd annual Vaggie Fest(no that is not a type) is happening, featuring a whole lineup of hc/punk bands with members of both genders, in a park pavilion, with food and beer. everyone grow the fuck up and embrace it.

publichousing (May 5, 2011)

Rosa Luxemburg, Women's Suffrage and Class Struggle
http://marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1912/05/12.htm
"A hundred years ago, the Frenchman Charles Fourier, one of the first great prophets of socialist ideals, wrote these memorable words: In any society, the degree of female emancipation is the natural measure of the general emancipation.[B] This is completely true for our present society. The current mass struggle for women's political rights is only an expression and a part of the proletariat's general struggle for liberation. In this lies its strength and its future. Because of the female proletariat, general, equal, direct suffrage for women would immensely advance and intensify the proletarian class struggle. This is why bourgeois society abhors and fears women's suffrage. And this is why we want and will achieve it. Fighting for women's suffrage, we will also hasten the coming of the hour when the present society falls in ruins under the hammer strokes of the revolutionary proletariat."

flamebaitnickloving (May 5, 2011)

What is this shit a weekly feature now? Every broad in the scene gets to write a fucking report on why its sexist. Hell half the nerds listen to your shitty band because they want to fuck you, so put up with it. Sex sells. No, I didn't bother reading the essay just going off on the subject.

StaceyFitz (May 5, 2011)

yiikes.

mahalfy (May 6, 2011)

yikes indeed!

thermonuclearwarrior (May 5, 2011)

I would totally have sex with this chick.

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

This comment makes the lofty assumption that she'd have sex with you. Needless to say, I'm sceptical of your hypothesis.

mahalfy (May 6, 2011)

You have sex with chickens?

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

"Please, when we're around children, we prefer to call him the chicken lover."

gregnaha (May 5, 2011)

i feel like these girls writing these essays is creating more problems than it can possibly solve. an internet essay probably isn't going to change anybodys actions. i don't know though, she's in a bad situation but the reality is that these are girls who go into an environment that is primarily male, they have to expect some ignorance. but comments from her like this one: "The fact that if I take my shirt off at a show, I immediately become a spectacle. It's just as hot for me at shows in the summer as it is for anyone else." that doesn't make sense to me. i mean, if i see a girl take her shirt off i'm probably staring at her and so is every other guy in the venue. somebody has probably already said what i just did but i didn't read all the comments.

ilivesweat (May 6, 2011)

How exactly are the women taking part in this series creating problems? Because they're drawing attention to issues a lot of people would rather ignore, or not acknowledge at all?

mahalfy (May 6, 2011)

Exactly!!! Ignorance grows on apathy. I am just waiting for some essays on homophobia in the scene.

letmycamerongo (May 7, 2011)

The taking the shirt off part was the only part of the essay that I started be like "Well, guys are gonna do that". And I'm not saying shouldn't be able to or whatever, I'm just saying, there is un-ignorable, unconquerable factor of human attraction. That is probably gonna happen.

kapnzach (May 6, 2011)

Sadie is the best record of the year so far, that's all. Also, I have a crush on Katie.

virtualvisor (May 6, 2011)

Well, so long as everyone--including Katie Crutchfield--acknowledges that Katie Crutchfield herself exhibits both intellectual dishonesty and, ironically, sexism with this statment, I guess I have no problem with this lil' blurb. It's kind of cute, even.

ilivesweat (May 7, 2011)

Cute? Well that's not patronising at all... What was that about sexism?

ervy (May 7, 2011)

punknews needs opinion polls

Baronvonfuckyoustien (May 7, 2011)

Does anyone else want to here Emily Whitehurst's opinion on varying subtopics of Sexism in punk rock. To me with the exception of the Lauren Dentzio's band it seems to be Alt Rock bands attaching themselves punk rock. As for the jokes didn't Fat Mike and el Hefe trade racist jokes during their warped tour sets back 09?

Dycelot (May 12, 2011)

wow, alot of comments here. even though punk rock isn't dominated by males to the extent it was when i was a teenager and there was little differentiation between a punk and a high school aged male who skateboard, smokes pot and cuts class, i suppose in my little town and in ottawa i was never faced with much sexism in the punk scene, ditto racism. women and non caucasians were pretty much accepted with a general lack of concern from most of the people i knew. it simply wasn't an issue for us. punk rock was a place where people could vent about the discrimination we saw elsewhere, and the fact that it was welcomed for the most part was reassuring and reminded me why punk rock was right for me. i'm surprised and a little shocked that this many people would have such negative things to say about a woman merely expressing her feelings and views in an essay that nobody had to read if they didn't want to.
"yes i recognize the irony, the system i oppose affords me the luxury of biting the hand that feeds. thats exactly why privileged punks like me should feel obliged to whine and kick and scream till everyone has everything they need" -Propagandhi
That said: her article struck a chord with me because i'm not a huge fan of female vocals. listening to her helped me see her side of things, and although my preference has nothing to do with gender bias but merely the (selfish) fact that I still like to imagine i'm singing a song that I love while i'm listening to it, I never realized how voicing that opinion might make a woman feel, which is something I would never have intended. it's too bad people have to react so defensively to somebodys feelings. i see alot of arguments, and like she said, she just wanted a discussion.

yayhdapuaneer (May 13, 2011)

Love you, Katie. So proud you're my bestie. Don't let anyone bring you down.

Also, as long as sexism exists, women like Katie will be there to speak their minds, especially for those of us (such as myself) who have a hard time finding the words due to sheer frustration at the "bro" mentality we face on a day to day basis, both in and outside the punk community. It sucks getting it from the rest of the world, and it's absolutely painful to get it from the very place where we sought refuge. Dealing with comments at shows like "yeah, I'd fuck her" about any female that dares pick up an instrument or get in front of a mic, or being treated patronizingly because, "well, she's only here because she's fucking him/wants to fuck the band" is detrimental to all of us - it sets us back, and makes us like the mainstream society we all shied away from. Equality, understanding and respect is all Katie's calling for, and, honestly, is that so much to ask?

gugl0003 (May 15, 2011)

Don't know what the rules are for posting links, but I wrote something about this. http://featureparty.blogspot.com/2011/05/sexism-in-punk-scene.htm l

Dycelot (May 16, 2011)

i read your article, i thought it was well written
i will point out that for the most part what you are suggesting is exactly what is being done here