This

Hit the nail on the head.

Here here.

Also, it seems to me that some of these European festival organizers are among the least tolerant people on the face of the earth. "Oh, your band shot a music video in a strip club? You're off the bill. Your guitarist wore a Burzum shirt once? Off the bill. You may support the American military? Off the bill."

Someone needs to explain to these dudes that tolerance extends to all people, not just the ones with ideas you like.

Don't confuse conflict with nationalism. From what I gather people at Fluff were ticked off about the whole "nation's freedom" bit, not supporting a veterans in need.

Not to justify throwing bottles at people, but I believe in strict demarcations between institutional and personal pacifism. Just because I don't have a problem with kicking your ass doesn't mean I'm not opposed to rounding up a big group of people to kick your ass.

I agree with your sentiment and pretty much everything you said, however, and I know you were just being hyperbolic, but throwing bottles at people and dropping bombs on people are not the same thing. I know you said "ideologically" but still......One could argue a case for throwing a bottle at a single person AND for not dropping bombs on a people, and I wouldn't automatically call them a hypocrite.

Also, I believe that there are varying levels of pacifism. You can be strict about it's definition and I guess I couldn't argue with you but there are people that seriously wouldn't hurt a fly in their everyday life yet support the wars or people that feel the need to enact violence for a more peaceful society (like overthrowing a dictatorship.)

But I digress. No doubt, if you were throwing bottles at this band just based on the press release and not getting the full story, you sound like a raving idiot to me as well.

Not seeing an issue with an anti-war (according to their own words) band having a press release that says the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan are "fighting for our freedom" when they're clearly fighting for oil is a very dumb thing.

Forst they wrech themself.

11/10

good laugh, bravo.

Not sure if trolling.

A lot of army veterans are sexual assault survivors. I don't feel like organising suffering people into a hierarchy based on whether or not my precious politics says they deserve help or not. That's not compassion. That's being a zealot, and it's something the radical left is notorious for, unfortunately.

Yet, I'd wager a lot of people wouldn't have batted an eye if they donated money to say, help build a library for death row inmates. Soldiers are people and returning soldiers often suffer from a number of mental and physical issues that their government tries really hard to not pay for. You want to pigeonhole them all as murders, that's cool, but they're people first and foremost and looking you and caring for people is never a bad thing in my book.

That's a very monolithic way of looking at it. I think most of us here will agree that what soldiers do is essentially criminal, but you have to remember a lot of people don't look at it that way. In fact, a lot of people view soldiers as heroes, while other people see military commitment as the most direct route out of poverty. I'd say those viewpoints have been systematically ingrained into society, because politicians need motherfuckers to pull the trigger in order to get the oil or whatever they're looking for. The fact that many soldiers return home with crippling PTSD or serious drug addiction is more than enough evidence to suggest that they aren't mindless sociopaths, simply people who didn't have the wherewithal to realize what they were getting into. I don't see how you could think of these soldiers as anything other than a symptom of war.

Being anti-war is typically a humanitarian viewpoint
Helping troops returning from war (no matter how unjust the war may be) is a humanitarian action. Seems pretty clear cut to me.

I totally forgot that the 'Jewbacca' on Punknews and 'Jewbacca' on the Summit are two totally different dudes and I was about to lay into Summit Jewbacca on Facebook for this BS post.

Then I remembered he's Thrusters over here.

Even if soldiers were all horrible people, there are practical reasons to help them. Veterans have an astonishingly high incidence of violent criminal behavior (particularly spousal and child abuse) and mental-health-related issues that are a drain on society at large if left unchecked. You may not like the individuals involved, but society wins when the "unfortunate" are taken care of. Consider it an investment in not getting randomly gunned down at Burger King by a PTSD-addled Marine.

Yes, many soldiers (especially post-Vietnam) are unrepentant murderous rednecks. So bring murder and war crimes charges against them, then. Berate them personally for their decision to enlist. But beyond that, treat them like the human beings they are. No matter how shitty you are you still deserve a safety net.

Also, hard to believe a band supports war when they have so many songs about how fucking miserable it is.

See - The Bite and the Sting

I agree with you, but there are people that would argue that taking the hardest stance against war would be to not support ANYTHING involved in war, including soldiers - I think one could make the argument that since they were not drafted, soldiers in the military are at least passively pro-war, if that even makes a lick of sense.

I'd say that the only implication here is a racial one, that Eastern Europeans are too stupid to understand nuance of any sort. This whole problem stems from their news letter, which clearly took a pro-war stance. To then expect people to believe the band is apolitical is ridiculous. This isn't about the charity donation, it's about their explanation for it.

This is not in line with Matt Toka.

Lol at your reading comprehension.

I didn't notice this. Hilarious. That said, they could be Anarchists, in which case it's consistent.

LOL at Americans and Brits thinking their liberals are actually liberal.

Aren't you the kid that likes Skrewdriver?

Well that's a slippery slope saying "they brought this on themselves", but yeah, to refer to those wars as fighting for OUR nation's freedom seems at the minimum mildly incorrect and nationalistic.

Remind me to throw plastic bottles at you because I disagree with you. You brought this on yourself.

In the other emails that weren't posted in the article the band says that the press releases wasn't written by them and if they would have seen it before it was posted on B9's website it would have been changed.

Because having a slight political disagreement means that you should cut off all contact and relationships with one another: that sure sounds healthy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N-3RZBdH1Eg

are you naive enough to below that all of our troops are saints? that's like saying all teachers are good, all doctors are good, all politicians are good... etc

People suck and war is hell. American troops are no different from any other military in history. War triggers some ugly, ugly shit that's built into all of us. That's why there is no greater crime than starting a war -- all the evils that follow are implicit and unavoidable.

the press release wording was changed by our label/publicist after we saw it, and it was a really busy time for us with Jay getting married and Mike on tour with Make Do and Mend. Also, to clarify- the press release mentions "wars in Iraq and Afghanistan" only in relation to the NEGATIVE effects these wars have on the psychological and physical health of the people involved. I can understand how the "fight for our nations freedom" line would be problematic, and that's one of the lines we would have rephrased.

http://www.flufffest.net/fluffdefeater.html

Maybe they'd be conflicted. From what my Croatian friend tells me homophobia is rampant over there and is even embraced by the more liberal political leaners, so they'd all be pals with Al Barr.

If you're committing violent acts in the name of pacifism, you're probably posing pretty hard.

totally true!

You know the people campaigning "against the troops" as you see it were in the Czech Republic right?

Idiot alert going off.

Never mind having a global military bigger than the next 10 countries combined -- Please tell us WHY we need a military period. As opposed to just a National Guard.

You lost me at "don't like it? leave?" After that line I just pictured you typing while sitting on your roll away bed with a can of skoal and a bottle with three x's on the label.

Either that or rounding up Roma for deportation or complaining about "muslim birthrates".

I went to a football match as recently as a few years ago and this one team actually did it...
...to their own player.

A week later, they played Athens and after some people started a racist chant, a guy yelled "come on! we've got *name* now, don't be immature"... to which they responded "Yeah! But that's OUR *nbomb*!"

Fucking firms.

That's why *I* like 'em. ;D

Is that an argument against helping people who need help though?

"Nationalism" isn't having pride in your country, it's thinking everyone from every other country is a shithead. It's a very wrong attitude to have.

The United States HAS been to blame for many of the world's problems since 1945. Those people taking bullets may THINK they're making their country and families safe, but the opposite is true. These are not controversial facts outside of the USA bubble.

*EXTREME leftist activities

i completely agree. i really think some people forgot why the punk community became a community in the first place. no matter who you are you were accepted. at least that's what drew me in. but it has just become a bunch of rules and regulations to fit in but the funny thing is is that it has become such an elitist group that no one can fit completely. it always comes back to the poser paradox.

Woah... Fluff is very very very pro-feminist. They had lots of feminist bands, just like every year. And if some people want to organise a left-leaning hardcore/punk festival, why should they give a tribune to right-leaning bands/individuals?

Even saying something like "European hardcore supports..." is so dumb it's unbelievable. Do you have any idea how big Europe is, and how many different countries and cultures are there?

Jingoism is far from a minor issue.

First of, it was only a small minority that were holding banners/shouting stuff/throwing cans.

Second, how is being anti-war and anti-USA imperialism and supporting the troops who are "fighting for our freedom" a "minor difference" in political opinion?

By the last 60 years, I think you mean "ever".

Um... How are Defeater's lyrics glorifying soldiers? By telling stories about "wartime heroes" turning into alcoholics, abusing their wives/children, becoming addicted to gambling, homeless, etc.?

The message in Defeater's lyrics is more complicated that in most bands' but it's still anti-war. The problem was that ridiculous press release, and the band stated that it wasn't them who wrote it.

This.

I'd like to say that you are fucktarded and that those men and women are dying for NOTHING. For WORSE than nothing. While pussies like you play armchair colonel.

This! I never understood this north american vision of 'supporting the troops'. Why would anyone want to support people that chose to join an army (any army) and spread death and suffering around? We never experiensed the horror of an actual war in brazilian soil, but like most latin american countries we had horrific military dictatorships for decades and I can say there's nothing noble about an army. There's nothing noble about killing, torturing and censuring populations. Armys very, very rarely defend people against anything, but they are constantly imposing by force, death and horror the political and economical interests of a few. And soldiers are peolple that agree with this actions and vision by choosing to join an army, getting trained to kill people and many times actually doing so. The US army do not defend anyones' freedon anywhere, as they represent the worst side of a very plural and democratic USA, that of the empire that imposes by force their way and cause suffering around the globe. So I don't think soldiers of any nationality deserves any simpathy or help from me.

I don't know if anyone is still reading this thread but I just want to clear up a few misconceptions. I would like to first say that your English is very good.

I will only speak for myself but if anyone I knew was thinking about joining the army I would do everything in my power to convince them not to. I do not think that soldiers are heroes defending my freedom. All I know is that these are people returning to our country in needing of help. Period. Without help many will become homeless, commit suicide, or be violent, fucked up people within our society. Was it their choice? Sure, of course it was but that doesn't mean they don't deserve help. I place the blame much more on the politicians that are perpetuating these wars without congressional approval and without the will of the American people than I do on some kid that joined an army hoping he can get out without having to kill anyone and maybe get a chance to go to school and get a job.

Do YOU know of any groups that are on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan that are doing good work helping out the victims of the wars. Both places are so fucked up and there is so much corruption that it would be hard for me to throw money over there expecting it to go to the right places and people at all. If I have a family member/neighbor/friend that is a vet, it's easier to volunteer and actually see the good that you are doing. Plus, the fact of the matter is when people donate money and/or volunteer somewhere, it's usually because it's something that has affected them personally. You often don't choose what to volunteer for, it chooses you, if that makes sense.

I don't think we would be having this conversation if people were donating money or volunteering for a group in an inner city that helps out ex-gangbangers that may have killed people in their past. Some of those people have done atrocious things in their past and yes that was their choice. But there are always a lot of things in play that make those choices easier to make (poverty, racism, lack of hope for a better future, etc.) It doesn't mean that ex-gangbangers shouldn't get help re-acclimating to society.

I also think that vets against the war have done more on both fronts of helping out their fellow veterans that return home AND building up a voice of people that are against the war than anyone here. And they're able to do one without abandoning the other.

Many of my heroes are vets, like Howard Zinn and Kurt Vonnegut, and many of them have done more to promote humanism and anti-war sentiment than most.

I try not to let rigid ideologies come before real people. I don't always succeed, but I try.

I agree with almost all you wrote but talking about CHOICE is not always a good idea. Sure, we make some choices, but it's never this simple.
Right wing extremists love talking about personal choice all the time for a reason - it allows them to easily dismiss all major social issues. You're poor? Your own choices made you poor. You're a drug addict? Your choices. You're in prison? Your choices.

The reality is that most people who make the choice to become soldiers are poor and have no better life prospects to get out of poverty, and they are also constantly subjected to propaganda. JOin the army and become a hero everyone respects + you get to fix your life. The reality is that they are also victims of the same system. They are not as big victims as the people of Iraq or Afghanistan or any other country in conflict, but they are also victims.