I swear to god, if *one* person makes some sick joke about this, I'm retiring from this damn site because there is no hope left in the world. My condolences to the Blacksburg scene. I'm glad Kevin Wade is alright. -Scott

goddamn. hardcore dancing is so stupid. why dont people just chill and nejopy the music instead of making walls of death. iheard this band was going to play a tour with From a second story window, but i doubt that now.

hardcore dancing is not "stupid." god forbid anyone should move a muscle when the music makes them feel something. idiot. this is shocking really...and picturing the fall is disgusting...hope those hurt recover fully.

When you do stupid things which may hurt or kill you, and then does, don't expect tears.

My sympathies. Damn that really sucks...

feel better kids

OK, someone had to do it: It's Death By Death By Stereo.

Fucking scary. I think sometimes we take for granted the people we come in contact with on a daily basis and how much we enjoy their presence. I guess if anything at least we know the kid that died was probably having the time of his life at the show. My sympathies go out fo his family and the scene in N.C. R.I.P.

1. what is a wall of death? 2. its tragic but i'm not going to cry over this. you do stupid shit and then something happens to you, its your fault. like that crowdsurfer who fell and broke his neck and is paralyzed for life.

Man, DBS just can't get away from bad shit happening to them. This sucks, VA Tech is a great school and I feel really bad for the kids involved. -sickboi

Maybe I'm just showing my age, but I don't know what a wall of death is either.

Whathtefuckisthegoddamnwallofdeath???

According to www.punkhardcore.com Following the tragic event at last nights' DBS show, the band has decided to change their name in honour of the deceased person. They will now be known as Death By Patio.

man, thats pretty horrible.

Eek i was going to go to that show. I live like 15 mins from it

Holy shit. That's so fucked up. Can you imagine going to a show, with the chance you might die? Wow!

line up - - charge! - - - - -- boom! -- splat! wall of death...

At least he died listening to semi good hardcore music. Take part in the punk rock community and write your own reviews and more at www.Thesoundcircle.com

Give me a break, the wall of death isn't some ancient satanic ritual, it's another thing hardcore kids do, and it has been done 1000's of times. It's tragic that an accident happened, and someone got killed. All the people that are saying that they're not sad, because the kids were being stupid, go screw yourself. The kids were just having a good time like everyone does at shows, just should have closed the window.

Why is everyone putting blame on everything but the club? The club/booking is to blame 100%. I know its "punk as hell" to have a club not up to code and dilapidated, but this is what the consequences are. First, why would you have a window in the club? Especially within the height of a human being. Why would you overbook a club when it should have been obvious this can happen? I don't care how obnoxious kids would act at a show, short of someone bringing a gun, or intentially trying to KILL someone, no kid or kid's actions should ever be to blame. Thats like saying when 7 or so people died at the Pearl Jam show in Europe a couple years ago, that it was the crowd's fault for pushing forward. No, it was the venue's fault for having shitty speakers that go out causing people to rush forward to hear the set. Or when the Who played in Cleveland and there were all those trampling deaths. It is the venues fault. Always.

Ok, first how is running and hitting each other any fun? That's like way super lame. And second I feel bad for the kid,cause it's true sometimes you do dumb stuff,if the "wall of death " really occured. Of course you can have fun and dance and whatnot,but this sounds idiotic. IDIOTIC I SAY! Sara (no h)

so who's gonna be held responsible? The band? Homeowner? Biggest dude in the pit? On a side note, all i could think about is the "parents against the pit" hearing from the H2O video for everready. If this were a band like limp biskit there would be protesters all over the place. /rant

****crosses fingers & hopes that someone taped that show*** Nothing is funnier than when stupid people get fucked up. Example: My girlfriend's little sister's friend was skateboarding down a busy street during rush hour. Fell off, got run over by a truck. Oh well. Look there are too many people on this planet anyway. If some of the stupid ones want to help by doing things that smart onlookers say "Hey, that doesn't look like a good idea.", I say let 'em. In fact it sould be encouraged. Make the world a better place, get your not so bright friends to do things that may get them killed. Not only are you doing something good for the community, just think of the entertainment value. Stupidity should be painful, and in some cases fatal.

kind of eerie that one of the banners at the top of the page says WATCH THEM DIE

Maybe they should've tried the 'wall of life'.

Anyone that says this isn't tragic because they were doing something stupid is a dumbass. I'm not the biggest fan of hardcore dancing, but I respect the fact that alot of people for some reason like it. I'm sure to the kids doing it it wasn't stupid. It was just some kids having fun at a show and it ended up tragic. That sucks. Anyone that makes a joke about this is a dick!

I'm sure it's said 50 times already, but I just want to say condolences to the people, as well as the scene, because that's a hard situation to cut a scene.

man that's fucked up. i'm tired of all this blaming hardcore dancing and shit like that. you go to a show to have a good time. you don't want none of the action, stay back or see the band on tape. what sucks is the window thing. rarely shows take place where there are windows. Ramo

It's starting to sound like this place had no business holding a show. The only mistake this kid made was being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and to suggest that he was somehow responsible for his own death by being in a crowded room is beyond ridiculous. It's bullshit posturing and a pre-pubescent attempt to look tough, equating being callous and controversial with being punk, somehow. Get over yourselves. Bottom line: No one deserves to die for attending a concert.

No one is tellin you hos to cry. I'm not crying. But this IS tragic. If you wanna tell me that they deserved to die, then you really don't have much appreciation for mortality. But whatever, according to the update, Daniel was in the wrong place at the wrong time and that sucks ass. My condolences to his family, friends, and his scene. Based on the posts from the Kemuri accident, Alot of people on this site bitch about feeling sorry for people they don't know, but i don't give a shit, Its not like you pledge your life to avenge the guys death or something, you just acknowledge the fact that it reallly sucks to lose your life,

People here are being fucking stupid. If you're as scene as your own lame-ass thinks even though you sit behind a computer all day, you'll read these points: 1) The kid who died wasn't doing anything to deserve death. Are you guys even paying attention to what people at the show were saying? The place was overcrowded... you sure as hell wouldn't like people saying "It was his own fault" if YOU were the dead one. 2) Secondly... everyone's like 'fuck moshing' 'fuck the wall of death' etc etc... but since when has there been such a rallying cry against this? Only since this. You guys sound like parents at an anti-video game violence meeting. Again, my condolences to the people involved in the tragedy. That's really horrible. Let's understand something now... this place was OVERCROWDED and obviously NOT the best-prepared place for this. Kids mosh all the time... you can't blame them for this. The tragedy was a victim of circumstance. I know this will bring no closure to this argument but believe it: No one person or entity is at fault. Every factor depended on each other and the event just played out into the jaws of tragedy... -overcrowding... -insecure venue... (I've never been there but being a 'house party', less 'secure' than most professional places) -second story... -unstable windows... -a crazy pit... -intense music... think about it. it's NOT just ONE thing so stop saying this kid deserved to die because he was stupid and get your facts straight.

get over it...people die

This sucks. It doesn't personally affect me, but it goes without saying it would have been better for everyone even remotely involved in the show if it hadn't happened, especially the kid that died. I always find it fucked up when someone younger than me dies, and nobody regardless of age deserves death for dancing at a show. To the dumbasses who keep saying that the kid deserved it: How would you feel if it was one of your friends? Get the broom handle out of your fucking ass and start being a halfway worthwhile human being.

Death by stereo sucks dick anyway, and i'd be way more sad if someonen died during a senses fail show.

so many people are saying to get over it, but when it is a celebrity their not so critical. my condolences go out to the kids family.

Hundred! the december drive sucks.

I feel real bad for these people and hope that the people injuried are able to recover without any perment conditions. I read this earlier and have been thinking about this, but an incident like this could really kill the scene around there. the family could sue DBS, the owners of the house, the promoter, the people that live there, and if they could make some shaky connection epitaph, plus if this makes some sort of national news with the wave of those other club deaths it could lead to just a general slow down of shows in some areas. btw the wall of death, at least how i used to do it, was we'd line up near the back of the club arms around our shoulders and right as the band started run forward. thats about it, suicide machines and sick or it all have done a modified version called the braveheart where they have people split across the pit and do the same thing. as for the whiny second hand sweater fake glasses wearing crybabies saying they deserved to die cause they were having fun at a hardcore show please shut the fuck up. so you dont like to mosh or whatever fine stand around and absorb the emotional qualities of the music as it aura wraps around you and fills your soul with emotional expression or whatever bullshit you yap about. its hardcore its not ment to be listened to just standing around it should get the kids moving if it isnt then the band must be doing something wrong. plus punk/hardcore pits are usually positive places if somebody falls people pick them up cause no body is supposed to be getting hurt, its just a way to dance to music and get whatever frustration out that you may be felling, at least thats what it was for me. if you want to see assholes in a pit go to a metal show there people are more about throwing elbows and steping on fallen people, at least in my experiences. fuck man a person died and more are injuried and all you can do is whine about mosh pits grow up and get a life thiers alot more important issues than somebody invading your precious personal space bubble.

I repeat IDOTIC Any of you that participate in this stupid thing to,please refrain from going to shows. Sara(no h)

why is that whenever ANYONE dies, a good 1/2 of the users on this site feel as if they need to be assholes about it? it's funny, none of you were there, none of you saw what happened, you read some fucking 2 line summary of what happened at the show and you assume that this kid was some moron that threw himself out of a window. i'm glad that guy wrote in to set the facts straight, i'm sure you assholes would be singning a different tune if it was one of your friends that got pushed out of a second story window. fucking wastes of sperm and egg, the lot of you. -waste

i just want to say: i love the people who post in response to the news. for oh so many reason. 1: they are the most accepting people on the earth. Even if news is posted about something that doesnt interest you, you show unrelenting love to those who do appreciate the news. 2. you are not elitist. you like your music, and are open to other people telling you about their favorites. there are no levels of worshipping, every band is treated as equal. 3. you are all about unity. you dont pass judgement or stereotype like other sites. you dont create an image of someone based on what they type on the message board. 4. you are all compasionate. when someone dies, you show your respect, and move on. even if you didnt know/care about the deceased, you still show your sympathies in order to make everyone elses troubles a little bit easier to handle. i love you guys. thenick

I dont get it...some musician dies from OD'ing or gets into an accident because they fell asleep at the wheel or were driving like an idiot and its a huge tragedy..its a shame..everybody's hearts and prayers and whatever go out to the bands and the families...Hello..did they not die because of their stupidity? lets see...you fall asleep at the wheel...you made a stupid judgement call, someone else should have been driving. You OD..another stupid judgement call. Whats the fucking deal?..I dont understand how you can possibly justify these actions and take pity when someone who is in a band does something stupid and dies...while at the same time you call a 19 year old kid stupid for just going to a fucking show. Its sad when people die period. Now if I'm understanding things this kid was standing by the window and the crowd moved and he was pushed out..It doesnt sound like he was doing any "stupid" moshing shit to me...Maybe he was one of those rare people who went to shows just because he liked the music and stood in the fucking back because he didnt care to mosh...Is that wrong...God forbid going to a show to hear music you like...you shouldnt do that..you might die..you're an idiot!! What the fuck??!! Everyone talking shit and being an asshole seriously needs to go fuck themselves. I thought people who posted here had some respect and dignity..but I guess you flushed that down the toilet to try and score some scene points...well you did it..YOU ARE SO FUCKING PUNK ROCK!! FUCK YOU!

I saw Against Me in a basement in Madison last fall. During one of the opening acts (Madison's own Big Fat Ass) kids were hanging on gas pipes coming from the ceiling. Since the show took place in a basement, gas pipes weren't really a weird thing to see there. Kids hanging on gas pipes coupled with cigarettes in a VERY overcrowded basement with one exit equals disaster. We were all luckier than the six people you've just read about. Some of you are calling those six unfortunate people idiots for... well, for doing something. I'm not exactly sure what these six people did wrong. They stood at a show while other people were getting a little nuts. If those gas pipes had burst, you'd have been reading about Madison, WI last October. Only two or three people would have been responsible for it but somehow, according to previous posts here, we all would have been idiots. You all should be ashamed of yourselves and, really, just plain embarassed at your lack of comprehension skills. The people standing by the window in a crowded living room didn't do anything exceptionally stupid. They weren't the ones dancing. Sure, they stood by a second story window during a rock show, but some of you are making it seem like they are responsible for the downfall of hardcore shows. Which is just plain nuts.

hey. i was at this show, in fact i almost went out the window myself. kids were moshing (not like assholes) and the density in one corner just got to be too much and 6 people flew out of the window. it was the scariest thing i've ever witnessed. i tried to grab one kids foot but it was fruitless, as his momentum was entirely too much for me. this is a dark day. im gonna ask kindly that people refrain from making asshole comments, out of respect for the deceased. the blacksburg scene is am amazing and tight knit community with a unparalleled sense of cameraderie (sp?). there's no sense in pointing fingers here. none of these people were stupid. this was an amazing show that was put on for us by the geunine people who live at this house. the people who live there sacrifice so many luxuries (like working plumbing and heat) just to bring shows to the community. no show here has EVER been more than $5 (including fairweather/coheed, strike anywhere, darkest hour, DBS). the house has been a staple of the scene and community for over 2 decades. please do not say anything bad about the house or the residents of it. this is a tragedy and nobody would have let this happen if they thought it could or would. we all appreciate your many condolences and thoughts. please keep the families of the victims in your thoughts and prayers (im not religious...but right now, it couldnt hurt). we will soon have a donation fund for the victims (most of them have little or no health insurance). i will keep the editors of punknews.org posted on funds and benefits. thanks very much for your time chris calabrese boringchris@vt.edu sn: onkyt

You think some of you could step out of your roles as "God" for just one second? It's one thing when you bitch about bands people like, but someone actualy died here. It was an accident, and no one is to blame. I am sickend by all the posts saying the kids should be responsible for there own actions. And there actions were? going to a show and ending up against a window? they didnt do anything wrong, and this is a very sad and freak accident. I wish everyone recovering the best of luck, and best wishes to the family of Daniel J. Martin.

First of all, it was a "wall of death". A person who was actually part of this wall of death which ended up pushing people out of the window posted about it on a different message board. This is an excerpt from the post: " i was in the wall of death. i pushed those kids. i cant do anything about it. " (http://www.artinheart.org/talk/viewtopic.php?t=1366 - username: pogonias ) This pogonias person seems to be an admin within the website, has over 300 posts, and seems to personally know the other people posting in the thread. I say this because why would someone lie about being part of someone's death if it wasn't true? Now with his admission, along with a bunch of other people who've said it was a wall of death, I think it's safe to say that's what really happened. Now, if you don't know what a "wall of death" is, let me explain it to you. It is when a group of people line up on one side of the room. Usually 10-15 people. They all lock arms, and then charge across the other side of the room hitting everyone in their way, and pushing everyone to one side. First of all, this is not "dancing". Running from one side of the room to the other is just not a fucking dance. So stop reffering to it as a dance. Second of all, I'm sure everyone has heard the old line "if you are going to a hardcore show, you know there is going to be hardcore dancing, so if you don't want to get hurt, just stand off to the side". The problem with the wall of death is that it is a bunch of kids running from one side of the room to the other. They aren't just hitting people who want to be "in the pit", they are hitting EVERYONE. And the saddest part of this story is... you know the people who were "standing off to the side" because they just wanted to enjoy the music and not take part in any of the "hardcore dancing"? Those were the people who were against the wall / window, and those were the people who ended up getting pushed out first. And this window was huge. It started at the floor. It wasn't a regular window. I feel bad for these kids because you can't say something like "well, you were standing in the middle of the pit and you got hit in the face, so that's your fault". Most of these people were standing along the wall, off to the side, and they were litterally pushed out of a window by a bunch of kids who thought it would be a good idea to run from one side of the room to the other. I have no problem with hardcore dancing most of the time, because if people want to be part of it, you can choose to be part of it. And if you want to stand off to the side and just watch the show, you can do that too. But these people who were standing off to the side were MADE part of it, whether they liked it or not... And that is fucked up. The sickest part about this is that most of the time, when people decide to do a wall of death, it is because they feel too many people are just standing around. So they think "hey, look at all of these people standing around that don't want to mosh like us, lets do a wall of death and try and get them to push us back". People need to learn not to fuck with people who aren't fucking with them. If someone is standing to the side just watching the band and not bothering any one, just leave him the fuck alone. I'm sure he can see all the cool kids in the pit, and if he wanted to go kick box during a break down, he would on his own. PS. I wonder how the law is going to look at this... because they will see it as "a large group of kids who ran from one side of the room to the other pushing kids out of a window". They aren't going to look at it as "dancing", and they aren't going to look at it as "just something that happens", because those kids standing near the window were off to the side and not in "the pit" where getting hurt would be understandable.

The fact that so many people are calling it "hardcore dancing" proves to me they recently sold their sweaters for Poison The Well CD's. This shit is fucked, whether or not it was a Wall Of Death or whatever. These are people just like you, they were at a show just like you and no one "deserved" to die. People like that child molesting priest that got killed in a MA prison - people like that guy deserve to die. These were just kids at a show. This could've been you. I'm thankful it wasn't me.

damn man....i remember a venue here had windows like that on the second floor...i always tried to avoid the windows...that's crazy...i hope no one blames the kid caues it sounds more like he was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

I'm sure that getting pinned up against a window was not these people's intentions. I am a smaller-than-average person and somehow I always end up getting trapped during shows, especially those of the hardcore kind. Lord knows how hard I've tried to get out, but sometimes it just isn't possible. Martin and the other kids involved should in no way be blamed for what happened. the way i see it, being "pinned against a window" was not something they could control and something they probably tried to get out of. give them the benefit of the doubt.

It's one thing for you kids to be hateful towards myself and other pn.o reviewers because we write something you don't like, or because you just plain don't like us. Odds are, you didn't know this kid who died which means, maybe you don't feel obligated to feel sympathy. But you also have no reason to be hateful towards this person. If you weren't at the show, you can't really say what happened, so how is it your place to point fingers? Who are you to say somebody deserves to die? You kids are so damn self-righteous.

I think the reason why Frank (the guy at the very top of the Update) and other people are trying to now go back and convince people that it wasn't a wall of death is because people could end up going to jail over this. I'm sorry, but if a group of kids all lock arms, run in a line and end up killing a person by pushing them out of a window, whether it was an accident or not, there are major issues to be dealt with. If you go to that other message board, http://www.artinheart.org/talk/viewtopic.php ?t=1366 , there is a guy on there saying he was actually part of the wall who pushed the kids out. Now, if there was no wall, like people are trying to convince us of, why would someone admit to being part of it? It makes no sense. But what does make sense is that when this first happened, everyone was truthful as to what happened, and then they realized "holy shit, we made a wall and purposely tried to squish everyone to one side of the room and ended up killing someone", so now they're trying to go back and make it look like an accident by saying "the pit was in the middle of the room, and all of sudden people started flying out a window". I don't buy it, do you? Of course no one wanted anyone to get hurt or die, but don't make up stories. Take responsibility like the guy who posted on that other message board. Say that you made a wall, and you pushed people up against the window, but you didn't expect it to break. Don't try to pretend like it was just a random mosh pit that sent 7 people out of a window, because that is unrealistic and no one will believe it, and you aren't going to be able to get everyone who saw what happened to back up your lie.

scott is so EMOtional...

megan made quite an EMOtional statement...

This event has validated the idea that most people who comment on this site are incredibly stupid.

Death By Stereo are now no more......

I keep trying to get to that other messageboard and it appears that post has been taken down, no? No matter what happened here, it was definitely an accident and unfortunate at that. I don't get how some of you people sleep at night saying things like the guy that died brought it on himself. You know, you can continue to point the finger, but that kid still died, and all the accusations and finger-pointing aren't going to bring him back. Think about this for a minute, those of you who want to call him stupid. Are we all stupid for going to shows and having a good time? You can't control the people around you. Accidents happen, folks. Life isn't perfect.

What's better than a dead baby? A dead baby in a clown suit! Sorry that was a little off subject.

So what's the deal,was he part of the "wall of death" or not? I'm glad I don't go to punk concerts

i think its funny that people assume that lack of compassion for idiots means im 14

Looking at all the comments it is really easy to separate the assholes from the non assholes. This seems like a terrible, unfortunate accident. We all go to shows to have fun. This is just to bad for all the kids in the VT scene and anyone involved in this. Anyone who feels worse when they here about their favorite band signing to a slighty more major label then this is an asshole.

i posted this in a reply to skeptism earlier, please read: this is chris, i posted all that other shit cause i was also there. there was no "wall of death." someone mentioned it as a fucking joke, but nobody actually did it. there was no locking of arms or anything like that. simple side-to-side motions did it. i was right there the whole time. theres no legality thing in this. 2 guys running forward is not a "wall of death." and the 2 guys i saw running forward hit the crowd way before the kids fell out. there were just too many people moving into the corner at once. enough with the wall of death rumors.

from epitaph.com Epitaph and Death By Stereo would like to extend our deepest condolences to the families and friends of all involved in the tragic events at Solar Haus on Sunday September 28th in Blacksburg, VA. At approximately 10:00 pm, during the band's last song a number of fans fell through a window from the second story of the venue onto the concrete patio below. The show was immediately stopped and Emergency personel arrived at the scene within minutes. There was one fatality and others were injured. What happened last night brings us all incredible sadness as we mourn the loss Daniel J. Martin. In light of the tragedy, Death By Stereo will not be performing Monday September 29th at Club Krome in South Amboy.

Man this is grim. I remember being at St. Andrew's once and they had to stop the show because the floor was caving in on The Shelter (which St Andrew's basement). These kids were just trying to enjoy some music. That isn't a way to go out, especially being so young. I don't quite understand why people try to point the finger at a time like this. I mean, things like this happen when obvious dangers are overlooked, and there could probably be blame spread out over almost all parties involved. But who the hell am I to blame people while I am sitting here drinking a beer in Detroit? Thats why when I heard about this I said a prayer. Thats all any of us can do right now, just about. And the only thing worse than being injured/killed in this is being part of the group that supposedly pushed them out the window accidentally. I prayed that those kids don't live the rest of their life messed up in the head over a terrible mistake that probably wasn't 100% forseeable. It's just a bad situation for anyone directly involved. And who cares if people make jokes about this happening? Let them get off on other people's misery if it makes them happy. The sensible people on this site will just browse right past shady comments and not even give it second thought, anyways.

How come no one is blaming the venue for this? You can't blame the kids dancing and you sure as hell can't blame the band for playing danceable music. But if you pack a bunch of crazy mosh kids into a room with huge windows on the second floor, you know someone's going to get hurt.

isnt a wall of death that thing where they ride the motorbikes round the walls of a cage?? now kids if your going to ride motorbikes at shows people can get hurt or even killed.

This is one fucked up and sad news. I don't think that the DBS or the 'HC dance' should be responsible for something that would not cause death if it was outdoors or in a proper venue. RIP Daniel

i dont think ive ever seen the word stupid used so much in one place

The only people who are saying that it was the his own fault are the people who don't know what a WALL OF DEATH is and don't understand the situation. This guy was standing off to the side near the window. Then a group of kids came running at them in a WALL OF DEATH. The people who were standing off to the side got pushed through the window. So how can you say that it's his fault just because he was standing off to the side? That's fucking retarded. The bottom line is... these kids who did the wall of death shouldn't have started pushing people against a window. Use your fucking head for christ's sake. If you and a group of people run and start pushing another group of people against a window... IT MIGHT JUST BREAK.

Has a single person who labelled the victims as "idiots" responded to the argument that those pushed out of the window were bystanders rather than participants, therefore it would be unjustified to belittle them? I've been skimming through this thread and I can't recall anybody backing up how those who were inadvertantly pushed through a window were "idiots".

Has a single person who labelled the victims as "idiots" responded to the argument that those pushed out of the window were bystanders rather than participants, therefore it would be unjustified to belittle them? I've been skimming through this thread and I can't recall anybody backing up how those who were inadvertantly pushed through a window were "idiots". Can I assume that you've shut the hell up for being so retarded?

Yeah, while normally I'd make fun of this situation and be like "dumbasses," these kids were just hanging out trying to rock out and go pushed out the window by dipshits who think it's '82 and still cool to beat each other up at shows. Of course, it's also pathetic that the place was allowed to get so packed, so in a way, you walk into a room that full, you're asking for trouble. Either way bro, it's the stage dive of a lifetime, much like Patrick Swayze in Point Break...the big one calls.

Just stop, everyone. Please.

Is it wrong to keep seeing the "Teaching Poodles How to Fly" scene from UHF in my head when thinking of this?

i blame those damn bastards who ALWAYS have to drop their quarters and the rest of their pocket change in the pit and then pick it up as fast as they can. Get a fucking coinpurse. In all seriousness though, it's certainly a tragedy and I will keep those deeply affected by this in my prayers.

http://www.collegiatetimes.com/index.php?ID=2115 hers a pretty good article about the incident it has a picture of the window too...

well...at least its one less "hardcore" kid living.