hahahah seriously.

well anyone can argue thats what the united states is, we rebel, and we rebel against rebellion

I just forgot to say first. First.

i would think that even a fiscal conservative would fly in the face of punk ethics. in my mind, the politics of empathy and support inherant in punk can't be upheld if you believe in dashing welfare, are anti-union, etc. i don't understand how this works. how do find music you relate to if you're a conservative punk?

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

only if you can rationalize more than one way to solve a problem. You talk of bandaging the wound by giving a hand out, a fiscal conservative would rather prevent the wound in the first place or give it a means of healing itself. Its compassion, only from a different view point.

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Someone (April 29, 2004)
Um, Johnny Ramone was a total conservative Republican... punk is about being who you are and not giving a fuck what anyone else thinks, and its stupid to say that it should be restricted to any one political side. Anyone who says punk has to be leftist doesn't know the first thing about punk. Plus, it makes sense that the new generation of punk would be conservative, since we're rebelling against our parents' generation, which was and still is pretty liberal, at least in the highly metropolitan areas. I think it takes a lot of balls for punkers to say that they are conservative, because just take a look at what the vast majority of other "punks" say about them, calling them evil racist nazis and not even listening to anything they have to say. When you think about it, a lot of so called punks are pretty fucking close-minded about politics, like if you don't agree with t

show rest of commentUm, Johnny Ramone was a total conservative Republican... punk is about being who you are and not giving a fuck what anyone else thinks, and its stupid to say that it should be restricted to any one political side. Anyone who says punk has to be leftist doesn't know the first thing about punk. Plus, it makes sense that the new generation of punk would be conservative, since we're rebelling against our parents' generation, which was and still is pretty liberal, at least in the highly metropolitan areas. I think it takes a lot of balls for punkers to say that they are conservative, because just take a look at what the vast majority of other "punks" say about them, calling them evil racist nazis and not even listening to anything they have to say. When you think about it, a lot of so called punks are pretty fucking close-minded about politics, like if you don't agree with them, then you're an elitist bastard. I kinda like these conservative punks, wherever they are. They're bad asses. But with that said, I still think political parties are lame and should be abolished because they're only there to brainwash you. Go Moderates! And what the hell is punk about unions?

Anti-choicers? Killing a baby is not a choice, just like a man choosing to rape a woman is not right because it's his 'choice'.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Killing babies is fun. fAt mAn

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colleen (March 25, 2004)

i hope you are a girl

Screw it. Im alot closer to right wing thinking than left, but I *am* indeed a punk. But me being a "conservative" has nothing to do with homophobes, psychos, and elitists. Those arent conservatives, theyre assholes, and those kinds of people are everywhere. I dont bash welfare, I just know it needs reforms. I dont think the rich are inherantly evil, but I do feel they need restrictions. Being conservative is NOT being the type of person like Bush or Cheney. Theyre fools leading the fools. Plus I prefer to call myself "Middle Wing". I dont like liberal thinking, nor do I like conservative. Left on their own they'd both ruin society. Theres alot more non-liberal punks than one would think. As a matter of fact, most people I know thought they were liberals until we sat down and discussed liberal politics with them. -=Grim=-

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Someone (November 16, 2004)

no offense, then you don't actually take the punk "values" to heart, you just like the music. that's not a "punk". that's someone who wore flannel in the 90's cause they were "grunge".

Probably tomorrow. - Kirby

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

i bought it today. its good very good

Which is weird since he's a democrat.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

How do you know that?

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PolyesterKhakis (April 8, 2004)

this is kinda late, but in smalley's column, he wrote that he votes democrat in most elections. FYI, there are such things as conservative democrats

I like Dave's music a lot, but that column was lacking in reasoning. I think there's a valid point to be made for fiscal conservativism, and against the somewhat simplistic reasoning on punkvoter, but fighting that with even more simplistic reasoning and things which seem inserted for shock value(I like Bush! Reagan was right! Look at what I just said!) is just more noise in an already droning political arena. I'd like to see him say something that sounds a little less like a father's trite "You'll understand when you're older" words to a son. I know he can write something better than that reactionary piece, but I'm still waiting for it.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

"Some Day Never Comes..." -ccr -MATEO D'CAY

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Someone (April 1, 2004)
I just can't believe Dave Smalley of all people...IS A BUSHIE!!! Now I agree, maybe Punkvoter should be called Liberalpunk and I also agree in accepting other people and their politics......BUT THIS PISSES ME OFF! I mean seriously, here is a guy who sang the lyrics "where's the other side of my American dream", and this was written during the 1st Bush era, when the Republicans did have control of the political discourse in America. How could he do this? Honestly, as a long-time DBL and old ALL (their first two CD's of music)fan, I just feel so disappointed. There's no other words in which to describe it. Does he honestly believe in any of Bush's far-right domestic policy and neo-conservative foriegn policy? Now, I was shocked when I found out about Johnny Ramone and his conservative roots, but at least he was very vocal about it and unapoligetical from the beginning, when people in

show rest of commentI just can't believe Dave Smalley of all people...IS A BUSHIE!!! Now I agree, maybe Punkvoter should be called Liberalpunk and I also agree in accepting other people and their politics......BUT THIS PISSES ME OFF! I mean seriously, here is a guy who sang the lyrics "where's the other side of my American dream", and this was written during the 1st Bush era, when the Republicans did have control of the political discourse in America. How could he do this? Honestly, as a long-time DBL and old ALL (their first two CD's of music)fan, I just feel so disappointed. There's no other words in which to describe it. Does he honestly believe in any of Bush's far-right domestic policy and neo-conservative foriegn policy? Now, I was shocked when I found out about Johnny Ramone and his conservative roots, but at least he was very vocal about it and unapoligetical from the beginning, when people in the 70's punk scene discovered his politics. I am vomiting in my stomach right now.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

what about dys? great band

Am I the only person here that has never been at all impressed by ANYTHING Smalley has ever done? This drivel just cements that sentiment for me. I can't say I'm surprised though...this is the same Dave Smalley that would hide out backstage when DBL was on the Warped tour dressed in his Gap kahkis and ignore the kids that came to see him. Asswipe.

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notfeelingcreative (March 22, 2004)

I liked him in All.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

So why do you feel the need to be so negative? That guy has influenced more singers, musicians and writers, even everyday citizens, than most people. 'the same Dave Smalley that would hide out backstage when DBL was on the Warped tour dressed in his Gap kahkis and ignore the kids that came to see him. Asswipe. ' What is that all about? I have had the good fortune of meeting him at several shows, from All and Down by law. The guy has been very nice and incredibly sincere. I know other people who have had similar experiences. Just because you don't agree with him politically doesn't meen the guy isn't very personable and also legendary! the guy is standing up for his own beliefs.

I always viewed punk as "accepting" rather than "anti everything". The reason i got into the scene in the first place was because the kids I knew didn't pass judgement on me for not putting up some sort of fake front. Sadly, there are a lot of "punks" out there that make the scene no better than "if I don't have the new air jordan's, I'm not cool" only instead of that its "if i don't have the hip punk gear, or if i'm not anti-bush ...".

Bud, I don't really agree with conservative politics, but that was by far the stupidest thing I've ever seen written on this site. Punk has nothing to do with "anti-conservatives". It's about speaking your mind and having something half-intellectual to say (which just kicked you out of the loop.) I'm so sick of kids thinking that the punk concept is simply anti-whatever. I mean, if you really want to dig deep, then punk is also anti-politician and anti-establishment. By your standards, you should be an anarchist running down the street naked (because clothes come from big companies with capitalist mentalities). Even that spikey hair or mohawks that most "real" punks have are constructed using hair care products that come from companies who support capitalism and conservative governments.

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Someone (April 29, 2004)

Thankyou!

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Someone (February 18, 2006)

Even that spikey hair or mohawks that most "real" punks have are constructed using hair care products that come from companies who support capitalism and conservative governments. ------ just a note, regular bar soap will do the trick in keeping your mohawk or liberty spikes up...just froth and blow-dry...:)

Whoever wrote this post is definitly not over the age of 15

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

moron...im actually 22...when i was 15 i still foolishly believed conservative governments were capable of working......maybe you'll learn that some day. And, YES, having "conservative punk" is an oxymoron.....it makes absolutely no sense.....it's a joke. I can't believe you guys actually buy into this bullshit.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

explain to me exactly how conservative governments aren't capable of working

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

check out the last four years bud

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

im no supporter of the bush administration, but the country is currently "working." Making the claim that the last four years have not been "working" is inaccurate. The country has by no means been "working well" by my standards, but the country is working. Without some sort of government, there is chaos, which is not capable of working.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

hey. i totally support you. saying that punk cant be conservative is bullshit and petty. what the fuck.. the whole point of punk is BELIEVING WHAT YOU BELIEVE.. not going with the damn trend of being liberal. god, i hate people who think theyre being punk while being such a damn follower.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

i am punk rock.

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islamic_gspot (May 8, 2004)

Conservative and liberal policies work in moderation and balance. Personally, I believe a government ran under more liberal based ideas gives room for that society to breathe a little easier. For instance; on the *O'Reilly Factor* a Canadian woman said that the most conservative people in Canada are still about two-feet to the left. And what do they get? Less violent crime and murder. See, conservatives are a bit more superficial, and don't consider all the facts surrounding them. Ed Azner said it best, "They're simple". For me, it only takes a few reasons not to enjoy conservatives: The Religious Right, John Ashcroft, "A Project for the New American Century" (PNAC -- look it up), and the sucking up to corrupt mega-corporations. Thus, ruining the average working-class American's lives.

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islamic_gspot (May 8, 2004)

And, yes, conservative punk is an oxymoron. You can be conservative and enjoy the music, but punk has generally been a tool to attack the status quo. I mean, as conservative as our last five presidents have been, that is proof enough that conservative is the status quo. I'm not going to vote for, follow, or believe in anyone who wants to take choices away from women, give us Patriot Act(s), Homeland Security, cut military pensions up to a billion dollars-plus, uses our greif and sadness over the tragedy of 9/11 to play cowboys and indians all over the world, and caters to mega-corporations so corrupt they're addicted to power (like a bunch of Margaret Thatchers on PCP). So, the whole conservative punk "movement" isn't based in punk ideals at all. I mean, we all saw what happened when the hippies became conservative yuppies. They turned into Bill Clinton types.

Not true. "Punk rock" in and of itself is apolitical. Ian nailed it in that quote.

Wow, this is insanely ignorant.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

no...being conservative is insanely ignorant....this is just anger.

Punks can be conservitive, it is just harder, since most the bands you grow up listening too are liberal.

i agree with you boss, let's look at what merriam webster has to say: liberalism: a political philosophy based on belief in progress, the essential goodness of the human race, and the autonomy of the individual and standing for the protection of political and civil liberties conservatism: a political philosophy based on tradition and social stability, stressing established institutions, and preferring gradual development to abrupt change which sounds the most like punk rock? conservative punk? an oxymoron. you nailed it.

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Someone (April 8, 2004)

Well it's good you've based your entire knowledge of modern political economy on what the dictionary says. Take a political science course and see how political philosophy actually works. Conservatives beleive that people should handle their own affairs without the government. Liberals beleive that the government should have an increased role in people's day to day lives. Now tell me which one you support. Run down to your local library and read some Milton Friedman or Adam Smith, then see if your dictionary definition still holds up.

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mrwaffles (April 10, 2004)

Or maybe YOU should run down to YOUR local library and read some Noam Chomsky. Because by your reasoning, being an anarchist is as conservative as you can be.

Gosh, you're really close-minded. Hope you don't consider yourself a punk, cause you're not.

Good point. Time for some one to make moderatepunkvoter.com. Do it!

Well said.

if by "conservatives adressing the loss of civil rights under the Patriot Act" you mean Libertarian conservatives, then I'd agree. I'd say 90% of the current conservative movement doesn't believe that at all, they think it's nonsense, just like global warming.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Exactly. That is the point. Each side is ignoring their own position's weaknesses.

Yeah. Both sides go "you're all brainwashed by stupid liars," without taking each other seriously.

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Someone (April 1, 2004)

You know what's interesting. Conservative punk has been the ones bashing Punkvoter's ass, but I haven't seen anything from Punkvoter about Conservative punk. I don't know how this relates to anything in this whole debate really, but it's something to talk about. By the way, I'm a liberal, but I to support other opinions. But I still am pissed about the whole Dave Smalley on Conservative punk thing. It's just illogical, it doesn't make sense considering the fact that if you look at a lot of DBL's lyrics, they sound pretty liberal, although many of you may disagree.

Richard Clarke was a republician during the Reagan and Bush era. If you really look into this guy, he is a total hypocrite. He claims to be against the homeland security thing, when he himself wanted to be appointed to the homeland security council. Just another Cry baby wanting to have his piece of the pie.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Well he worked under the Reagan, Bush Sr., Clinton, and Bush Jr. Presidencies so I don't know where he has stood politically over all those years but his opinion would seem much respected to me if all those presidents had him around fighting terrorism and since he’s been working in the government for over 30 years.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

according to a piece on cnn it says hes a registered republican but wrote the book with a nonpartisan agenda he says he just wanted to get the facts out beacasue he believes that we should have concentrated our efforts in afghanastan and found bin laden and that the bush admin wanted to go into iraq even before he was elected and just used 9/11 as an excuse.

Try all over the place, the cover of AP, etc etc

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

because AP is the equivalent of the New York Times and all...... yes i know it has gotten publicity. most major media these days is conservative though, that can't be argued.

maybe the fact that conservative punks are news. "punks support left wing policies" wouldn't make much of a headline

You seem cranky -Chris

No, you shouldn't even be listening to yourself! You have your own agenda to support yourself so why should you listen to any biased crap that comes out of your very own mouth? Do you have the answers? Fuck no, so in conclusion.... fuck you, fuck yourself, and fuck everything else. That's the real answer right there! But wait, I shouldn't be listening to myself, fuck whatever I just said.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

haha brilliant

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

You are too punk for me

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

I always make sure to believe the biased crap that comes out of my mouth.

Yeah, fuck all movements. Everyone should shut up.

"think for your fucking self, and avoid coroporate-conglomerate-amalgamate everything" 1- You just told me what to think, you moron. 2- Why are you even using a computer if you are against "coroporate-conglomerate-amalgamate"? And by the way, the word is "corporate", and using a hyphen and THEN saying amalgamate is totally redundant. Actually, amalgamate is very seldom used meaning simply "a union", and is more often used to refer to the metal alloy that the dentist uses to fill cavities.

That was Aubin.

That's not exactly true. The Republican party is definitely split on a lot of these issues. There's no "conservative" party or mind set.

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Haggard (March 22, 2004)

It doesn't say that there a man and a man or a woman and a woman cannot get married in the Bible. -Justin

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GREG6711 (March 22, 2004)

Justin, your playing with semantics. The Bible is very clear about homosexuality. since I know not everyone else is a religious person, I gave some other examples, and it just seems that homosexual marriages are unjustifiable.

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inanechild (March 22, 2004)

Hey, I don't have a problem with 2 consenting adults getting married. Already happening in my province, and my parent's marriage isn't falling into shambles. I know what you're saying: "Then next they'll make family members getting married legal!" Well, reverse sexual imprinting says we can't be sexually attracted to anyone we interact with regularly for the first 30 months of our lives; it's to prevent inbreeding.

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GREG6711 (March 22, 2004)

It's too beautiful outside to concern ourselves with such absurdities, if I didn't have chills and a slight fever, i'd be out with my friends. Go out if your a nerd like me go play videogames with friends. i'll be home listening to Pavement and the Dismemberment Plan...possibily some Decemberists.

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lieutenant (March 22, 2004)

Cite me where the bible is very clear on homosexuality. I will not pretend I have read the whole book, but I think your peg is lose.

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dazed (March 22, 2004)

Actually, there is something about (I paraphrase) 'A man shall not lay with another man in bed'. This is in the same book (Leviticus?) where the eating of pork and shellfish is outlawed, and if a child is unruly and rude to their parents they are to be taken outside the village and stoned to death. I can't pretend to have read much of the Bible at all, but a few years back I stayed at a friend's house where they read and discussed the Bible after dinner, and it was those passages. I politely refrained from commenting on how taking the Bible literally and agreeing with its every word is completely ridiculous.

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dazed (March 22, 2004)
Particular religious views (the aforementioned Bible and Koran) shouldn't be consulted when writing the laws of a country based on religious freedom. At any rate, I don't really think gay marriage is a federal issue at all, it's a state's right to define marriage. Some states will legalize gay marriage immediately, most never will. The only reason Bush has proposed a federal ban/Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is to draw attention from the fact that he is overstretching our government economically and militarily. It's incredibly hypocritical for someone who has described his policy on law to be strict-constructionist to derail state's rights and concentrate power in the federal government, especially for the purpose of imposing societal norms. Also, if social conservatives hate abortion so much, why not try to stop it by advocating birth control as a humane cheap alternati

show rest of commentParticular religious views (the aforementioned Bible and Koran) shouldn't be consulted when writing the laws of a country based on religious freedom. At any rate, I don't really think gay marriage is a federal issue at all, it's a state's right to define marriage. Some states will legalize gay marriage immediately, most never will. The only reason Bush has proposed a federal ban/Constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage is to draw attention from the fact that he is overstretching our government economically and militarily. It's incredibly hypocritical for someone who has described his policy on law to be strict-constructionist to derail state's rights and concentrate power in the federal government, especially for the purpose of imposing societal norms. Also, if social conservatives hate abortion so much, why not try to stop it by advocating birth control as a humane cheap alternative? Based on his standpoint on that issue, I think Bush reads the Bible he swore his oath on more than the Constitution it is his job to uphold, and frankly that worries me.
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GREG6711 (March 22, 2004)

homosexuality - state's issue, agreed, but when judge who have agendas have riduculous rulings, like in California, Bush has to do something. Abortion thing - many people think birth control is the anwser, it is pratical, and from a humane perspective, the anwser. I do think it's important for religious views to be heard in our country. Too many people fear religion so much they keep it out of everything, but obviously religion is a huge part of culture, and to a degree defines it. Should religion be used to define the laws? Not directly.

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dazed (March 22, 2004)
The judges who "have agendas" are also elected (possibly appointed) officials. If the Californians don't like these judges, they can vote against them, or vote against candidates who would appoint social activists as judges. This is how our Republic works, and the President is supposed to interpret Federal law, not "do something" about state law he disagrees with for religious purposes. While people's religious views obviously shape their character and morals, it also creates "agendas" for certain candidates beyond doing their job. Religious rules should only apply to the followers of a religion, and when they are the main justification by Bush for backing something as major as a Constitutional amendment I think that's a pretty direct connotation from religion to law. Honestly if the man was really conservative, he would not be pushing something this ludicrous. Reverse activism is ac

show rest of commentThe judges who "have agendas" are also elected (possibly appointed) officials. If the Californians don't like these judges, they can vote against them, or vote against candidates who would appoint social activists as judges. This is how our Republic works, and the President is supposed to interpret Federal law, not "do something" about state law he disagrees with for religious purposes. While people's religious views obviously shape their character and morals, it also creates "agendas" for certain candidates beyond doing their job. Religious rules should only apply to the followers of a religion, and when they are the main justification by Bush for backing something as major as a Constitutional amendment I think that's a pretty direct connotation from religion to law. Honestly if the man was really conservative, he would not be pushing something this ludicrous. Reverse activism is activism too, and the people of a state should be allowed to dictate their laws without being held to the national norms. Checks and balances and the division of power in our government have made it a model for a stable democracy. Feel free to disagree, but I think the greatest threat to America as a nation is allowing the executive branch to take unchecked power. It moves us closer to dictatorship, something any true patriot would fight. Peace.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Marriage isnt entirely a state issue. When a married couple moves from one state to another the state they just moved to has to recognize the marriage license. Basically it works the same as a driver's license. So marriage isnt just a state issue, it is also federal.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

if we left civil rights up to states, then uh, maybe alabama would still have segregated schools. the fact that we are having this discussion is disgusting. in 50 years it won't make a bit of difference, because it will just be legal. when a group of people are excluded in america, equality has always prevailed. don't forget, the same part of the bible that says gays are bad also says women are slaves and daughters can be sold into slavery..

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dazed (March 23, 2004)

I was just mentioning the current jurisdiction, arguing from a conservative standpoint against "conservativism". I'm not sure if marriage is a civil right or not, but I certainly find it intolerant for one group of people to say another can't marry. Hopefully you're right about 50 years from now... I think if the government respects people's basic freedoms the people will become more tolerant due simply to their humanity. Peace.

give me one good reason someone why gays shouldn't be allowed to marry? a hundred years ago interratical mariages were illegal. before that it was marriage withing classes... before that it was within the same religion... it has changed a lot in the last 200 years... so why can't it change again without the right being opposed to it? these were probally the same people who still think interatial marrige is wrong... - andrew13

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GREG6711 (March 22, 2004)

Andrew, you have a penis The penis is used to extract urine and extract semen. When semen and an egg combine, you can procreate. Unfortunetly, only women have eggs.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

what does that have to do with a union between two individuals? one argument i've seen frequently that bugs me is that the definition of marriage only deals with a man and a woman. a definition is an entirely relative concept. meanings change over time. is a fag someone who is gay or is it a bundle of sticks?

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

That's very interesting. Now explain to me how it's guaranteed that all heterosexual married couples will procreate. Face it, your logic is flawed. Straight married couples are free to have kids or not have kids. By your definition, what's the real difference in effect of a straight couple that chooses not to have kids and a gay couple that can't have kids? Besides, the world is so goddamn overpopulated that having kids is extremely selfish and irresponsible. There are thousands upon thousands of unwanted kids in orphanages right now, and you have to make a new one just to satisfy some social or biological urge? I actually think marriage is a pretty stupid institution to begin with because it reinforces patriarchal, male-dominated values. But people should be free to enter into it if they want to.

good one

Smartest post on here in over a year

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

you are both fucking morons, just because you don't like mall kids listening to your bands you fucking call being liberal trendy? Where the fuck have you been for the last 20 years dipshits? There has been a consistent rise in fascist conservatives starting with regean. You morons need to not worry about why people are against bush because in the end ALL THAT MATTERS is getting bush out of office. THis site should avoid tlaking about politics because 9/10ths of you have ABSOLUTELY no idea what you are talking about. I bet none of you even vote.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

i'd say the vast majority of the people looking at this site haven't been alive for 20 years.

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johnnyintrcption (March 23, 2004)

Getting Bush out IS all that matters, I absolutely agree, but my point is within the past year there's been an explosion of kids gaining so-called "interest" in politics for no obvious reason and without any clear views... They need to establish what they stand for and choose accordingly.

Absolutely. Fat Mike is on to some dangerous shit.

I think a lot of young people identify themselves as liberal because of punk music...so yes, I think a lot of it is biased. However, there is clearly nothing wrong with being a liberal. I think the Nofx/Ani-flag viels of anti-bush can lead young people to look into the matter clearly. Clearly though conservativism is given a bad wrap.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

conservatism deserves its rap

How weird, 12 year old punks aren't political scientists. Is it possible?

a bit of the old ultra violence is what we need eh?

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

"I was a wandering sheep I did not love the fold I did not love my shepherd's voice I would not be controlled"

Conservative politics do not link to neo facism. Need I remind you, Nazi Germany was a socialist state?

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

In name.

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MikeRiot (March 22, 2004)

yeah, nazi germany was not truly a socialist state. quit giving us socialists bad names.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Well, I think he's trying to make the point that Conservative does not always equal evil white rich people just as much as socialism does not always equal Soviet's and Nazi's. Hopefully that was not lost on you.

You just proved the article's point. Skrewdriver's message is completely ignorant and hateful and most of us here on this board would never defend it. But is it punk? Unfortunately, yeah.

They're not great, they suck!

Your comment represents excactly what we don't need in this ideological punk debate. By trying to associate conservatism with fascism and nazis you're merely taking the easy way out. And this will give conservativepunk.com yet another example of how liberal punks are supposed to be an "established thought police" taking cheap shots. If you want to drive conservatism out of punk (which will be impossible. Even though it's the minority, it's a way too big part of punk culture), at least try using some serious arguments. I'm left wing. But I totally aknowledge conservatism as an important part of what punk is, whether we like it or not. From Black Flag's "White Minority" to Agnostic Front's "Public Assistance", it's all (unfortunately) a part of punk history and what has made punk what it is.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

didn't i read this somewhere else......

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plutocracy (March 24, 2004)

Where?

Tori Spelling?

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

capitalization and punctuation as well. eat a dick.

justifying hate speech? yeah it's called the first ammendment. Yep, just justified it...start taking away rights of hate speech, and you start taking away rights of ALL speech.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Wrong. Wrong. Wrong. Fighting words aren't protected now. Has society crumbled? No. Hate speech is an issue beyond the law - maybe our law should permit it but our society and our humanity should outlaw it. Regardless, it's utterly indefensible and you, sir or ma'am, are clearly a moron.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Who needs the first ammendment anyway? Let's ban speech that is hateful to gays and blacks. And while we're at it, why don't we ban any speech that is hateful towards religion or criticizes the government. How strongly do you believe in anti-homophobia or anti-racism or if you're afraid to let your oppenent have a voice? If reason can't convince people, let them live in ignorance.

i think it's hilarious how people try to define punk. it's oxymoronic to try to say what punk is all about, because once you establish rules and qualifications, then you're definitely contradicting the punk movement. there, i did it too. postmodernist ethic to the freakin max

Republicans are traditionally anti-big government, pro-small state government. I think if you really investigate the matter, you' see things differently.

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dazed (March 22, 2004)

Not since Reagan. Since then they've been itno religious activism & military spending increases. Tax cuts without corresponding budget cuts create an unsustainable system, but the current incarnation of the Republican and Democrat parties agree that they can cut taxes and increase spending with no consequence. The differences are in particulars and magnitudes, as well as a major rift opening up in social issues. I wish one of the major parties was anti-big-government, but it's clear that neither is.

Eh, I have to disagree. You can be conservative and question what's being done in Washington. I mean, I'll be the first to come out against abortion, I think it's disgusting, gay marriages, I think it's disgusting, I was pretty much raised by my grandfather, he's old school therefore some of his views have taken a role in my life.(just to be clear, what people do behind closed doors is no concern of mine, I just don't approve of it). But, I also don't like the direction being taken concerning other conservative issues. I can agree with some things, but question others. I've talked "politics" on this site before, and some may have noticed that I'm what you would call nuetral. I don't care who's in office, I just care what affects me personally. So there you have it, you can have conservative views, but question conservative politics.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

If "what people do behind closed doors is no concern of yours", then why does it matter if you approve of it? It's not your life, and it doesn't have to do with you AT ALL.

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Yossarian (March 24, 2004)

My comments seem to be easy to understand, I didn't make them child proof, but you manage to take everything out of context. Congratulations, you have the mental status of an infant.

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plutocracy (March 23, 2004)

How does calling gay people disgusting make you neutral?

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Yossarian (March 24, 2004)

I'm nuetral when it comes to who's in office, I don't care who's up there, makes no difference to me. And I didn't call gay people disgusting, I said what they do is disgusting.

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Someone (February 18, 2006)

you just totally contradicted urself there buddy..

yeah, but the Souls are out in NYC now, check all their gear, it says Lower East Side now (re: "East Side Mags")

agreed There is no such thing as a democrat or republican. i don't think many "democrats" or "republicans" agree with anything their party associates itself with. Clearly we are all human beings, and we all have different opinions on how our country should be run. The stigma of party labeling is dangerous and outright offensive.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Most Democraps and Republifuck just vote for the person with the D or the R next to the persons name without knowing the persons platform. They vote for the R for Republican and D for Democrat. in reality thier both ran by big business anyway.

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

perhaps this view is ideologically gratifying for you, but when you get out in the real world you'll find that it really isn't true. at all.

thats such bullshit.. you are stereotyping, thats exactly what youre doing.. and dont you think itd be better to capture saddam hussein then for him to be killing people?? i just dont understand.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)
It's obvious you don't understand much, you don't need to plainly state that for people to figure it out. Saddam and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and pretty much terrorism in general lately. There are many places in the world (North Korea, Rwanda, Haiti, Cuba, etc.) that have rulers/dictators that are treating their people like crap and killing citizens left and right. Have you heard anything about the US going into these places to remove their leaders by bombing the shit out of the county and in doing so murdering thousands of its citizens??? Of course not, because bush was only interested in finishing what his moron daddy couldn't do the first time around, not to mention he would coincidentally also gain control of one of the largest oil supplies in the world.... How anyone could support what the bush administration did in Iraq is beyond me, I just don't u

show rest of commentIt's obvious you don't understand much, you don't need to plainly state that for people to figure it out. Saddam and Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 and pretty much terrorism in general lately. There are many places in the world (North Korea, Rwanda, Haiti, Cuba, etc.) that have rulers/dictators that are treating their people like crap and killing citizens left and right. Have you heard anything about the US going into these places to remove their leaders by bombing the shit out of the county and in doing so murdering thousands of its citizens??? Of course not, because bush was only interested in finishing what his moron daddy couldn't do the first time around, not to mention he would coincidentally also gain control of one of the largest oil supplies in the world.... How anyone could support what the bush administration did in Iraq is beyond me, I just don't understand....that's what you should be questioning.
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Someone (March 22, 2004)

i do know that shit.. but at the same time, i think saddam is more capable and willing to attack us. and i know that 9/11 wasnt him, and i do agree we should take out other dogmatic dictators at the same time.. but that still doesnt say anything about not taking him out to. you cant convince me that we shouldnt have gotten him, and im very concerned with the fact of how many lives were lost, on both sides. im not trying to convert anyone, believe what you will, like i said, this is what the scene is all about, but in the end, you shouldnt ever judge anyone else for being strong in what they believe.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

It was proven in early 2003 and of course after the fighting ended that Iraq never had the capability to attack the US, the most powerful missile that they could launch could only travel 100-200 miles, that wouldn't even make it out of Iraq. Remember all of those UN inspectors went in and found no WMD's, and again after the war inspectors found nothing...just another excuse to murder people for oil.. I'm all for people having a right to believe what they want, and their right to free speech, but I don't think violence and war is the answer to all of the world's problems. There are alternative ways to remove dictators...

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

okay if you knew weapons inspectors were comming and you had WMD wouldn't you move them elsewhere so they can't be found? it's like with drugs over here. people keep their drugs in certain places and when a surprise drug raid comes up they are caught, but if they knew a drug raid was gonna happen then they would move it. it's just common sense.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

And the Bush administration recently stated that their intelligence on the WMD were flawed. And besides that, they're Iraq. Were, really, can they move them that we can't get to now? Have we found any?

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

and saddam didnt kill his people? what do you call murdering thousands of his own people because they were dissidents?

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Haggard (March 22, 2004)

China killed more people last year than every other country in the world combined and they're out number one trading partner or whatever. So yeah, your point is moot. -Justin

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Haggard (March 22, 2004)

*our number one trading partner -Justin

oh shutup, you're just as bad as the right-wingers claiming that leftists are driving the country to insecurity, communism and hell.

I'd like to know how you define the current state of the economy as being an "economic prison"...please explain because I look at the economy and see one of the lowest unemployment rates (at 5.6%) of all industrial nations in the world, strong financial markets, GDP and productivity gains and low interest rates that have been sparking capital investments and allowing families to refinance their homes at historically low levels. Sounds like a good platform for growth to me.

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Haggard (March 22, 2004)

The dollar is getting weaker and weaker. If it wasn't pegged to OPEC then we would definently have hyper inflation going on right now. -Justin

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

The unemployment rate means jack shit when you realize that it only accounts for people that are actively looking for a job.

I love how punks stand up for free speech, but are scared to allow the word NIGGER. Its a word, get the fuck over it.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

cuz everyone around here seems to like anyone but themselves to have a viewpoint..lol..

A Facist government is one that is ran by corperations and has a police state encharge. sound like we're getting close?

"due to the fact that they play the bigotry game very quietly and disguise as other things." So instead, we'll put everyone into special little groups, push them aside, and label them as special needs. Then we'll segregate them further by giving them free money and keep our mouths shut around them, as not to offend... good plan.. not quiet bigotry at all..

Yeah, so where's the Nazi Punks?

Was this a release by Simple Plan?

Yeah, that was a real stab at conservativepunk.com. Not to forget "Bleed For Me", what a brilliant protest song against the war in Iraq.

Sounds like punk's just fine to me. Fuck the scene, fuck the politics, the music's just fine, so why am I hearing that punk is in danger? Minor Threat P.S. Sickboi, you're exactly right.

My bad, didn't realize the story was 2 pages. Follow the same steps with this url to get the second page: http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/21/fashion/21PUNK.html?pagewanted= 2

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TheOneTrueBill (March 22, 2004)

Thanks man. Wouldn't have read the article unless you posted.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Punk rock was anti-hippy. The hippy's have now turned into liberals. Learn your history you bastards.

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punky (March 23, 2004)

So? Hippies changed? What does that have to do with punk?

the ramones were the first punk band and they were conservative. try doing some research.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Joey was a liberal, Johnny is a conservative...do research

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Ramones the first punk band? Friend, you might want to broaden your musical horizons. I might suggest MC5(motor city 5). The preceded the Ramones by a few years. Politically, they were part of the Michigan's white panthers, almost a sister to the black panther party. You may wish to try the Stooges on for size as well.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

WRONG. Only Johnny was. The rest of the band were left-wing

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Nope, in fact, they would write pro-left wing songs, but b/c johnny was the only republican, it was hard for them to do political songs. That's a fact, Rollingstone just did an interview with Johnny Ramone and that's what Johnny said.

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Someone (March 24, 2004)

amen brother

thank you

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

dear greg, fuck you. everyone who visits this site.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Hahaha! Right on :)

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Read as: Because I think differently then you, you are automatically wrong. PERIOD.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

lick a taint, greg.

don't assume that everyone who thinks a certain way politically did it because of Fat Mike. i hate Fat Mike and i also hate George Bush. there's a difference between the kind of conservatism you describe and the neo-conservatives who are now in power. most punks who hate Bush probably don't hate him because of taxes but because of the war and the bans on partial-birth abortion and gay marriage. social issues are what really divide people.

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

ironically, social issues don't have shit to do with government. every republican administration promises to halt the perciever decay of society, put they have absoloutely no long-term influence. none. 50 years from now, the federal government will very clearly have had no affect on something like gay marriege, a social issue that will run it's own natural course. the social conservatism of the right-wing politicos is simply a bait and switch tactic to further their economic intententions, which for better or for worse they have managed to accomplish.

Bravo. I am a "flaming Greenie", but that essay needed saying. I love how all you liberal shitbags are saying "Fuck those exclusionary, biased pricks" yet you're biased against them. Another thing, no one cares how you goddam define punk. You should all shut up.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)
Go home, no one cares what you have to say. Take your third rate agenda party with you. Fucking hippie. Eat shit. Ralph Nader can go fuck himself. I don't claim a political "side" but I do know that Bush is fucking everything up. At least I can admit to that, and want to do something constructive to stop him. Not chant, VOTE GREEN! I guess it's the most punk thing to do when chosing a side in this debate. Choose the one outside the box. Too bad nothing will get done. I can't wait around while you try to get your shit together! So fuck you Greenie shitbag. Kiss my ass, youre vote will be wasted come Nov. 2 and Im fucking glad. That's what you get for not knowing what the fuck you are doing. VOTE GREEN YEAH! ALL THE EMO COLLEGE KIDS ARE DOING IT. ITS THE THING TO DO TO BE NOT COOL...WHICH MAKES YOU EVEN COOLER IN THE END! Take your own advice and shut the fuck up s

show rest of commentGo home, no one cares what you have to say. Take your third rate agenda party with you. Fucking hippie. Eat shit. Ralph Nader can go fuck himself. I don't claim a political "side" but I do know that Bush is fucking everything up. At least I can admit to that, and want to do something constructive to stop him. Not chant, VOTE GREEN! I guess it's the most punk thing to do when chosing a side in this debate. Choose the one outside the box. Too bad nothing will get done. I can't wait around while you try to get your shit together! So fuck you Greenie shitbag. Kiss my ass, youre vote will be wasted come Nov. 2 and Im fucking glad. That's what you get for not knowing what the fuck you are doing. VOTE GREEN YEAH! ALL THE EMO COLLEGE KIDS ARE DOING IT. ITS THE THING TO DO TO BE NOT COOL...WHICH MAKES YOU EVEN COOLER IN THE END! Take your own advice and shut the fuck up skippy.
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Someone (March 23, 2004)

nader isn't in the green party.. that's enough out of you

...hate it when gov't wastes money on farm subsidies... Yeah! Fuck the farmers! Let's export the entire agricultural industry to the third world a put lots of hardworking people here out of work! Go ahead and believe in whatever you want, I honestly don't care, but when you have to nerve to talk about "wasted" money on farm subsidies while GWB talks of wanting to send men to fucking Mars you're crossing the line to batshit insane.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)
Farm subsidies suck, and here's why: You think paying some dude $70,000 a year not to grow anything or do anything on his land is somehow worth it?! That's wasted money right there. You think paying tobacco subsidies to tobacco farmers in North Carolina seems pretty cool. To promote the cultivation of a physiologically destructive crop! It doesn't make sense for the gov't to both support and oppose "big tobacco" at the same time (to subsidize tobacco and then later tax tobacco and advertise against tobacco). Since growing tobacco is a labor-intense and cost intensive process and would pretty much be unprofitable for most regular folks to do, why shouldn't it's fate be dictated by the laws of supply and demand? Oooohhh, I forget let's not let the market work here. Excuse me, but big agri-businesss is pretty much the huge beneficiary of farm subsidies, not so m

show rest of commentFarm subsidies suck, and here's why: You think paying some dude $70,000 a year not to grow anything or do anything on his land is somehow worth it?! That's wasted money right there. You think paying tobacco subsidies to tobacco farmers in North Carolina seems pretty cool. To promote the cultivation of a physiologically destructive crop! It doesn't make sense for the gov't to both support and oppose "big tobacco" at the same time (to subsidize tobacco and then later tax tobacco and advertise against tobacco). Since growing tobacco is a labor-intense and cost intensive process and would pretty much be unprofitable for most regular folks to do, why shouldn't it's fate be dictated by the laws of supply and demand? Oooohhh, I forget let's not let the market work here. Excuse me, but big agri-businesss is pretty much the huge beneficiary of farm subsidies, not so much the average farmers. Don't tell me "you" support "big business" you lofty-minded progressive?!
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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Ok, I concede...subsidising tobbaco is just plain fucking stupid. But who gets paid $70000 a year not to grow anything? My father is a farmer, albeit not a large one, and he hardly makes ANYTHING from farming. He works a full time job on top of the farm to live.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Lots of subsidized farmers get paid not to grow anything. If your dad isn't, then he's not doing his homework. Anyway, those subsidies are a waste. Wouldn't it be better to spend that subsidy money to create jobs in an area where we actually need something produced, rather than paying people not to produce. For instance, if $70,000 is paid to some farmer NOT to farm. How about you pay him $70,000 to help maintain highways or repair schools rather than just sit around and do nothing. It's stupid.

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LushJ (March 22, 2004)

Supporting farm subsidies doesn't mean that there aren't problems with them. Yes, the subsidies should go to small family farmers instead of agribusiness. BUT, you neglect to acknowledge that if the "free market" is allowed to work the same agribusinesses and major corporations will reap (pun intended, you're welcome!) huge profits by shifting operations overseas to less expensive countries with less environmental laws and worker protections. Plus, the internal economic and social dislocation from losing pretty much all non-specialty farming will be pretty intense. Move production off-shore, prices will go up as more corporations consolidate their monopolies and charge what the "free market" will bear. P.S.- If the market balks, they'll come to the US government- i.e. you and I- for bail outs. But that's a whole other post.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

My father was a dairy farmer for years, and there were no subsidies. We could have used some, that's for damn sure. But as a former NC resident, I totally see your point about the inherent contradiction in the tobacco industry. The problem is, that state's economy (already struggling) would take a deathly nosedive if you knocked out a lot of those tobacco farmers. Thanks for Jesse Helms' reign of terror, it was never a problem for decades. Now, it's a problem. I would really be interested to see what John Edwards' plan might be to clean things up in his home state. - Fatty Arbuckle

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

to your farm subsidies comment, many times the reason for this subsidy is to either A) allow the farmer to leave the land bare for a year to restore the nuitrients lost in the years before, and allow them to continure farming on it for years to come and B) to allow farmers to leave parts of thier land that is prone to erosion covered in ordert to reduce erosion or create wind blocks which also decrease erosion, this iisn't money just spent for no reason it has a purpose

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

There is little justification for the special hold that the agricultural industry has on tax- payers' wallets. Other industries, such as the high-tech industry, are also risky and subject to large price swings but do not receive large-scale government subsidies. Moreover, farm households have higher incomes, on average, than do nonfarm U.S. households, and subsidies are skewed toward the largest and wealthiest farm businesses. Farm subsidies also subvert their own goal: farmers demand subsidies because of low market prices for their products, but subsidies themselves contribute to lower prices. http://www.cato.org/pubs/briefs/bp-070es.html

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

radical left does NOT equal anarchist thought... and neither does radical right... extreme right and left results in basically the same thing.. government control of the people... in 2 different ways, but it is certainly not anarchist.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

the radical left's stance would mean social anarchism, but not economic anarchism

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

... so... government would have control of all the money... and radical right would be control of all the people... the result is not very different. If you have control of the money.. you basically have control of the people.. and vice versa.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

amen.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

I know, that's why it says radical left OR anarchist etc. -Jesse

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

"weighted to the radical left and to anarchist thought" Doesn't say OR...

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

I misspoke about "or", but the meaning is the same. They are denoted as 2 separate items, like Apples and Oranges, or Compassionate Conservatism and Religious Fundamentalists. Hopefully this clears up the confusion, thanks! -Jesse

I don't think Fat Mike necessarily feels like everyone should agree with him, he just pushes his point more visibly than most. He doesn't demand unity from those who don't agree, but has got it from people who do. Yeah, there are lemmings, but there are lemmings on every issue. A lot of people will never have an original thought. That said, I agree that punk has nothing to do with reading Noam Chomsky, being anti-American culture, and dreaming that by thinking nice thoughts we can end war. It's a completely separate frame of mind from the explicitly political, no matter where on the political palette one is.

I'm tired of people complaining about Farm Subsidies without understanding them. Without farm subsidies, farmers would have to maximize the price per unit. If they don't know much they're going to sell they'll sell each unit for the exact maximum the market can bear. By guaranteeing a fixed price for the entire crop, the farmer can reduce his wholesale cost. You want to pay $5 for a potato? Then get rid of farm subsidies. If not, go read up on the New Deal* and then take Economics 101. * Yes I know that the original New Deal was a much better system than the current farm subsidy system, but it's still better than $5 for a tomato.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

tomato or potato... which is it aubin?! Get your facts straight before you hop into a debate!

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Aubin (March 22, 2004)

I wanted to use two different examples... it doesn't matter. ;)

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

hehe.. just givin ya shit. good words in your post though!

but punk was always working for the better, no matter what needs to be done. so far the conservatives have been anti-progression, and that's not the way it should be.

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

conservatives and liberals have different view about better... it's really not like your typical right-winger is concientiously trying to make things worse.

Hahahah!! This worthless turd doesn't even have the intelligence to WRITE HIS OWN COMMENTS!! This comment was originally posted on the story here pointing out the Conservative Punk website (sorry, can't link directly to the comment, but you wont have any problem finding it). Good job man! You just proved to us all that "conservative punk" is just another name for "mindless sheep"!

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Someone (March 24, 2004)

I did write those comments. I just didn't put my name on them originally, that's all. Whatever. ***el_provocateur***

The estate tax taxes capital gains money. In other words, for those that are stupid, the estate tax taxes money that has not been taxed already. Therefore, the arguments that republicans use surrounding "double taxation" are completely useless. Yeah.

You're an idiot. If you knew anything about the estate tax, you'd know it only applies to the about 2500 richest estates per year. According to a study by the Joint Committee on Taxation, 98 people out of 100 will never have the estate tax applied to them, ever. If you repeal the estate tax, you're squeezing the government coffers and it'll be taken out on the poor, as always. Why don't you libertarian types ever propose privatizing the military? Now THERE'S some real waste and excess.

I agree. Think for yourself. Who knows, you might realize you were a libertarian all along.

A huge number of hardcore bands are right-wing....... the NYHC scene kinda fostered conservativsim in punk in the 80's.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

What are we talking about here??? I don't recall the website being named www.conservativehardcore.com??? I listen to lots of positive hardcore that is anything but conservative, name some of these so called conservative hardcore bands...

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

no dood,,..ur right. not one member of a hardcore/punk bands is conservative or republican. there is no way... i hope youre not over 16 years old.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

I knew it, I'm always right, thanks for validating my point.

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plutocracy (March 23, 2004)

Hardcore: Agnostic Front, Cro-Mags, some Black Flag (not all, depends on who did the lyrics) Punk: Anti-Heroes, White Flag

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Someone (April 1, 2004)

Was Henry Rollins right-wing? Does anybody know?

Skrewdiver, Brutal Attack, The Klansman, People Haters. So many to choose from as long as you are white and non jewish ....

indeed

You can like a band without agreeing with their politics... this is even easier when the band is not a particularly political one, like Bouncing Souls.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

That's a bunch of horseshit!!! That's like me going on a crusade and launching a website about saving the environment and recycling, but yet I drive a Hummer (6 miles per gallon) and throw all my plastic into the trash, that makes no sense... Of course I would be a huge hypocrite...can't you see that...

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

no... the fact that you had to make the analogy so far from what you're trying to contest really makes it pretty dubious to begin with. to stick a little closer to the original point, it's a lot like me enjoying guns 'n roses even though my thoughts on feminism are radically different then axl's.

I don't see how that makes him a moron. I'm a "social conservative" i.e. a very liberal republican or whatever you want to call it and I listen to some of those bands including the Souls. I don't have to agree with them about everything to enjoy their music or even a good portion of their message. I mean, you can't define people and bands STRICTLY on their political leaning. There is much more to music and people than that. If you had to agree with people 100% to associate with them, then you'd be very lonely in the world. I don't like what you are trying to imply here. People should be allowed to get along even if they fundamentally disagree on a few things. And you called him a moron...

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Then tell me why is he supporting a band that is against everything he is doing??? He built a website and did an interview with the NY Times, but yet he endorses his rival by listening to their music and wearing their merch...Do you see bush wearing a John Kerry hat??? I agree a person doesn't have to agree with a bands lyrics and ideas in order to like their music, that's not what I am saying. I am only pointing out what a hypocrite he is by promoting one of the proponents of punkvoter...Isn't punkvoter the sole reason he launched this website???

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

for a lot of people, enjoying music isn't always a matter of giving allegiance to their ideology.

Pro life: Means a person is against abortion and probably thinks it should be illegal. Pro-Death-Penalty: Means a person is in support of the death penalty. Rather than a chance for a criminal to rehabilitate in a correctional facility. Both of these views are extremely conservative... Personally I am strongly against both, a woman should have the right to choose is she wants an abortion. And I think the death penalty is ridiculous, violence doesn't solve violence.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

That's every bit as contradictive as the conservative view. I think you should either be for killing both unborn babies and criminals or against both. I'm against both, but that's just me. "Right to choose"? A woman could choose a number of birth control options or abstinence. The choice was to have sex, if it results in an unwanted pregnancy, there are people who would gladly adopt. Not to say there aren't some extreme cases when abortion becomes viable, but generally it is uncalled for. And as for criminals we should have compassion for them too. They're probably a product of crappy parenting.

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Someone (April 6, 2004)

there are many situations where "there choice to have sex" was not something that a woman made. is this one of your "extreme cases"?

Yeah, that's political schizophrenia for sure!

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

Almost as bad as pro-killing innocent babies, anti-executing killers.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

or you know...executing people with downs syndrome in texas...but sure let's go with killers, way better example for supporting the death penalty.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

The point is it seems ridiculous to have more compassion for killers than unborn children.

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CrankWillDestroy (March 22, 2004)

Pro-choice!

just remember: when people talk about the "right to life" they're referring to their right to decide who lives and who dies.

dude! thats not cool! Don't tease me like that.

Yep, now I wanna sniff some glue!

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

white is the way to go. pure euphoric gold.

wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong!

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Instead of typing wrong over and over tell me how i'm wrong. I'm open to all views, I may not agree with you but I'll respect your opinion in stead of typing wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong, wrong...

And how is exactly is Bush shipping jobs over seas? Last time I checked, it was individual businesses that made that determination. This is simple, let's follow a basic blame path: Business ship jobs overseas because...They can't compete with Foreign competition otherwise because...All of the REGULAR people in america would rather buy cheaper than buy american. You can't blame Bush for something that we all did to ourselves. If you own a Foreign car, or insist on cheap clothes, and cheap everythign else then you are exporting jobs overseas not Bush. Not that I blame people for shopping on price, but you can't get all red in the face about losing jobs when it has everything to do with people's spending habits and very little to do with Bush's handling of the economy.

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plutocracy (March 23, 2004)

There are many precautions Bush could take to prevent this from happening. But that would be typical anti-globalization policies, in other words: Political suicide for Bush.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

So when Bush said that out sourcing is a good thing becuase it will grow large markets and suport NAFTA and free trade, is that not giving large American business the green light to move thier job over seas?

your all a bunch of fucking idiots. get a fucking life!

Two thing: Q: why would a country go to war with another country over oil when that country doesnt even rank in the top 10 trading partners for oil? A: Because every little bit helps. The US gets most its oil from south america, but why not open a new market in Iraq. Q: If a country were to go to war with another country then why not go to war with Saudi Arabia? A: Because even though some times stupid the US govenment isn't that stupid. If they did invade Saudi Arabia first it would be way obvious that it was for oil.

Here's the short and simple truth. Saudi Arabia is our client state that keeps oil flowing the the west, so why would we invade them? Iraq has the second largest oil reserves in the world and moving US companies in to take control over is exactly what is happening. That is why we wanted control of Iraq (See the Iraqi Governing Council). Oil reserves in Columbia etc. are running low and regardless the US wants near total domination of the world's oil supply. Just because we have other ways of getting oil (drilling Alaska comes to mind) doesn't mean growing demand and a shrinking supply aren't important to the world's largest consumer of oil and only super power. I'd explain further but I'm outta time!

It's not 100% about oil just as it isn't 100% about showing military muscles or achieving Pax Americana either. Still, making Iraqi oil available on the international market is crucial. It's not about "stealing" their oil. Saudi Arabia is a friend of the US, plus their oil is on the market, so comparing that to the Iraq situation is meaningless.

I can tell Michael Graves is stupid as shit by his column on conservative punk.

i liked the picture of the guy who started one of the sites who had a normal haircut but just pushed it up into a faux-hawk for the picture what a dork

Hahaha, I was gonna say the same thing. What a douche bag. Although I, too, could tell he is a douche just from reading his article.

More like "yeah I'm angry, but more scared of loosing my trust fund and Saturn from my parents!"

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Saturn? Fuck that, we drive BMW SUV's. They pollute the environment more. Plus the added trunk space gives us a place to hide our assualt rifles that we use to shoot gay couples and doctors who perform abortions, because, you know, murder's wrong.

best post i've read all day.

I think Voltaire said it much better. I may not believe in what you say, but I will die for your right to do so.

Too bad they don't feel that way about you. Love thy country, fear thy government!!!

I am not a hippie, I am a fucking pissed off motherfucker who thinks the capitalist system sucks. Fuck those strung out hippies.

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Someone (March 22, 2004)

You're a hippie, now go make some protest posters with peace signs on them.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

you don't even know what capitalism is

So let's fuck this place up. I'd rather see the world go to hell than being called a hippie by strangers on the net.

far and away the best comment in this thread. thank you. sometimes i forget just what rock and roll is about.

Exactly. You should listen to this person.

that came off as very heartfelt and sincere. i agree with you on about 90% of it. but even if i didn't agree at all, i would be hardpressed to let you have it for it. good job.

Animus ad hominem, I rather enjoyed the genralized statements about how conservative punks are racist and stupid posuers.

RIGHT FUCKIN ON! I'm currently in a debate with the plastic minded militant Faschist Michel Graves, and he sounds like some old-farty 1960's Nam supporter. If you want to see the reality of what we are doing in Irag do a google search of (War atrocites Iraq American.) I don't know how some one could look upon such horrific destruction of humanity and continue to support it.

your comment = idiocy

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

you are a communist

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

you are a nazi

no man is an island, hoss guess those roads you drive on and that public school you might have gone to (or the one that educated your parents, etc.) were the end products of grand larceny too, huh? stop reading Robert Nozick and see what Alexis deTocqueville says about what made the U.S. great during its infancy i'm not saying that a huge, vigorous welfare state is the greatest thing ever, but without taxation, life would be pretty hard for most people (and i'm not a fan of regressive taxes that places like the state i'm from have either) -notaclevername

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Anyone forcing you to give up your earnings is robbing you.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

move.

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Someone (March 24, 2004)

anyone keeping the economy as unregulated as possible so that only those already possessing capital, influence, and power can really make it is no less than a slave master fuck no child left behind fuck the bush administration fuck the idolization of the invisible hand

Good comment!!! Right on the money.

"Fiscal conservatism" is completely about insane, regressive taxes on the poor and extreme polarization of wealth. Don't care if the kid down the street gets a decent education? Then privatize schools. By "getting government out of our wallets", you're basically making it open season on the lower classes.

Generally working class. So they can go both ways, really. Lots of reactionaries, some with conservative views on for example taxes and immigration. Many aggressive anti-racists and some left wing union people. They're all considered punks.

It's Propagandhi btw. I'm not even gonna comment on other things, because I can guess your age by that post.

Hey didn't Punks hate hippies, what happened now they are hippies.

Cool. Are you an islamic punk from Malaysia?

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

nah, but when it comes to theocracys, i almost live in one!

its HUPERT Moore. Get it right.

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

it's ROGER Moore, don't you guys know anything?

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

gimme some moore by busta rhymes great political song

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Someone (April 8, 2004)

It's actually Colorado Avalance forward STEVE Moore guys, get it right.

you hit that nail on the fuckin' head.

Hello Brandon Murray...>:) Well, I have something to say about this whole idea of "punk," but first I have something to say to YOUR statement. I hate to flutter your plumage, but pro-choice is a liberal view...If you were pro-choice, you are having the idea that the woman should be able to CHOOSE if she wants an abortion (what you were obviously talking about) And someone who is SOOO punk like you shouldn't care about things like abortion, no rules, right?? (Especially the way you were against everthing else political) The thing is, government is a neccesity in the modern world. SO mister Murray, if you were to choose a major political party that were closest to "punk" than the liberal party would be the choice for you. It's very childish to live life saying "That's gay, it's not "punk"" Is to live in a fantasy life as do the six year olds who WORSHIP pokemon. Bye baby :* NooDLES

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BPunkRocker (March 23, 2004)
Well, Mr. Pennington, first off...I don't recall claiming that I was "Punk", so fuck off with that. I'm Brandon and that's it. However, you seem to have misinterpreted my intentions on what I meant by my Conservative belief on Pro-Choice. My belief, as stated in the earlier message, is that it is stupid. Just because belief and Pro-Choice are in the same sentence does not mean that the individual supports it. Sorry to burst your bubble. Also, if you had taken the time to absorb what I had written, I clearly stated that Punk is against the system. So the way you're phrasing this, it seems as if there are no TRUE punkers around anymore anyway, because they're all flaming liberals. Rebellion is punk, and if liberalism is the closest you can ever get, then you're obviously not Punk at all. I myself, don't believe in labels and I find it stupid and childish to use that as a back u

show rest of commentWell, Mr. Pennington, first off...I don't recall claiming that I was "Punk", so fuck off with that. I'm Brandon and that's it. However, you seem to have misinterpreted my intentions on what I meant by my Conservative belief on Pro-Choice. My belief, as stated in the earlier message, is that it is stupid. Just because belief and Pro-Choice are in the same sentence does not mean that the individual supports it. Sorry to burst your bubble. Also, if you had taken the time to absorb what I had written, I clearly stated that Punk is against the system. So the way you're phrasing this, it seems as if there are no TRUE punkers around anymore anyway, because they're all flaming liberals. Rebellion is punk, and if liberalism is the closest you can ever get, then you're obviously not Punk at all. I myself, don't believe in labels and I find it stupid and childish to use that as a back up for your liberal beliefs. And I'm glad you brought up the "That's gay, it's not 'punk'" statement, because I agree completely. Don't let others' views on things influence your own just because you want to fit in. I despise those that "pose" to be punk, and those that don't support what they really like and believe in just to please the crowd. I don't really give a fuck as to what you think of any of my beliefs either, so go ahead and type up your little reply of triumph, because you'll get no reply back. Arguing is ridiculous. Later. --Brandon Murray
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Someone (March 23, 2004)

Wow, good try ;)..."Just because belief and Pro-Choice are in the same sentence does not mean that the individual supports it." yes Brandon, the subjuect of your clause was that which indicated the word "belief" and the verb was "is" which usually means IS, and your predicate nominative was of course "prochoice" Your statements seem as if you are confused about what you believe. You agree with what I say about how labels are gay yet you coin punk all the time. That's hippocracy my dear friend. Why would you not reply?? do you not enjoy getting your ass chewed?? ;;) Well Mr. Murray, this wasn't an attack THIS IS FUN...HAHA. Why would you post this if you didn't "give a fuck" what people say?

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Someone (March 23, 2004)

whats the big deal with being punk? remember punk music? dont label yourself, punk is different

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BPunkRocker (March 24, 2004)

Well...Mr. Pennington, I honestly don't care what people say. It's called speaking out and being heard. As you know, I'm very fond of attention, haha. ANYWAY...Either way, whether it was stated correctly or not, I do not support abortions. There, is that clear enough Mr. Grammatically correct? Yeah. How do you gather that I call myself Punk? Just because I support the bands that I listen to and wear old-school converse shoes you say that I claim to be Punk...Try harder. I didn't reply last night because I had to take a shit, haha.

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Someone (March 25, 2004)

I'm sorry baby....wanna kiss and make up like last time?? :D

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BPunkRocker (March 26, 2004)
Sure sweety :-* ( Goes to back room and moaning noises begin emerging from it ) ANTI-FLAG LYRICS "Right To Choose" Thrown out by her family In the midst of anger Mom and dad can't make sense Of her sexual preference It seems the cars Just drive by on this night No one has any idea What this feels like You wave your flag Tell me I'm free Then use the word fag To fuck with me You have a (hey hey) a right to choose Gen-der is, gender is not the issue Judged by parents and the public The Fingers pointed at them Well I'll point mine right back They Must Realize You can't change whom you love And gender is not the issue That night she said, "I will be true" Meant every word she said to you You have a (hey hey) a right to choose gen-der is, gender is not the issue It seems today, to be yourself Takes so much courage and strength If you were half the hu

show rest of commentSure sweety :-* ( Goes to back room and moaning noises begin emerging from it ) ANTI-FLAG LYRICS "Right To Choose" Thrown out by her family In the midst of anger Mom and dad can't make sense Of her sexual preference It seems the cars Just drive by on this night No one has any idea What this feels like You wave your flag Tell me I'm free Then use the word fag To fuck with me You have a (hey hey) a right to choose Gen-der is, gender is not the issue Judged by parents and the public The Fingers pointed at them Well I'll point mine right back They Must Realize You can't change whom you love And gender is not the issue That night she said, "I will be true" Meant every word she said to you You have a (hey hey) a right to choose gen-der is, gender is not the issue It seems today, to be yourself Takes so much courage and strength If you were half the human, as people who "come out" This world would be a better place You wave your flag Tell me I'm free Then use the word fag To fuck with me Go and wave your flag [x3] I'm free, fucking free!! YeaHH!! You have a (hey hey) a right to choose Gen-der is, gender is not the issue :-D

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Someone (April 3, 2004)

Pro choice is a socialy liberal view it is possible to be fiscally conservative and socially liberal it's called being a libertarian. However most people don't want to identify with libertarians becuase they do so much embarressing stuff. I.E. handing out toy guns to kids. Libertarianism keeps the government out of both your wallet and your bed room.On a side note their are Republicans who are pro choice Ben Nighthorse Cambell of Colorado being a prominent example. I don't whant this to look like a endorsement of abortion wich I am deadset againts. Americans have a bad habit of avoiding responibility Abortion is the most disgusting example of this behavoir.

i used to think they said "she wont even swell" instead of "Gee wally thats swell". Yep.

The troops have way more courage than you.

Punk is not what it used to be .I think too many of you are getting the punk scene and anarchism confused.Punk is nothing more than a bunch of spoiled little suburban kids lashing out at a world they dont understand,and the leeches in the bands and chain "punk" stores profiting off them.

who the fuck rote this shit

Rite on Ive been a republican and will be for the rest of my life.

www.naral.org

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Someone (November 16, 2004)

big govt? have you paid ANY attention to this administration? war is bad. doesn't mean it shouldn't be fought, i would never say that. but it must be the last reasonable option. at least you didnt' say this war is for our "freedom". the last war for our freedom was WWII.

actually, punk IS by definition a liberal movement. the originaly punk movement was to change the military obsessed govt and the strict cultural rules the govt tried to enforce. listen to the clash and the sex pistols, and tell me you can be a conservative and a punk.

once again. lets look at punk. founded by three major bands. clash, sex pistols, and the ramones. all left leaning bands. each one going about trying to bring change in their own way, trying to help get PEOPLE first. not govt, or big business. the "faux" punks are the ones who come out conservative, they're the sell outs.

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Someone (November 16, 2004)

just look and listen to 2 of the only old-school type punk bands out there still, Bad Religion and Pennywise. take a good listen to Let them Eat War by BR, that's true punk.

Punk and Bush are incompatible. Any questions?