"read voices of a people's history, that's where i'm getting my facts from. estimates were that they were killing people in the millions, just mass genocide. hence the comparison of columbus - the guy who brought the destruction and death to the new world, to hitler, who did it much more deviously, but five centuries later"

how's about we lump George W Bush in there? intent on saying to every Arab "change your god, democratise/open yourself up the US franchise or we bomb/starve the hell out of you". I suppose the massacre of 225000 iraqi CITIZENS in the last 3 years is bad enough? before anyone gets all shitty on me saying i;m talking bollox please check non- US press for facts instead of your mainstream press.

ohhh owned haha

ohhh owned haha

To the guy two posts down: Does that make Columbus a compassionate conservative?

A Short Account of the Destruction of Your Ass-Clown "I'm Super Smart" Blather.

Hmm. Well, it’s clear that you are mixing different people and their different posts and arguments. The very same person who argued against comparing Columbus to Hitler (something you seem to agree with) is the person who wrote about smallpox. Disease spread rapidly throughout both continents, yes, and it killed huge numbers of people.
And what I was saying was not that “smallpox didn’t factor into things until the 19th century” but that it wasn’t until the late 1700s and early 1800s that smallpox was intentionally used as a weapon. Sure, the Indians, Aztecs, and Incas didn’t have immunity, having never been exposed to it before, and got royally fucked up the native populations in the 16th century (30 – 40 years after Columbus and unintentionally). But not until the French and Indian War when Lord Jeffrey Amherst first got the idea of using smallpox against the Indians (and he eventually began selling infected blankets, etc.)

Look, if you want to mix arguments and just rant about how right you are it’s pretty easy to do. You’ve proven that you don’t need to be accountable and just start yapping away, but you’d benefit from being a little self-righteous and quick to call everyone mindless “liberals,” accusing them of regurgitating hippie bullshit. What hippie bullshit line are you even talking about?

You mindless "liberals" can never see the facts objectively. Yes, Columbus was cruel, and he tortured, enslaved, and approved organized violence toward the natives. The violent deaths Columbus was personally responsible for are minute, however, in comparison to any other genocide in history. Even when figuring in violence at the hands of the U.S. later on you're still looking at a body count in the tens of thousands. Horrific, no doubt, but nothing compared to the Holocaust or the war in Indochina. Columbus and the conquistadors were bastards, but the fact that disease was the main culprit is well-documented. To the guy talking out his ass below, disease spread with staggering rapidity through both continents. Smallpox was so virulent that it often moved more quickly than the Europeans themselves; I think Las Casas wrote about villiages that had been completely wiped out long before contact with the west. Smallpox didn't factor in until the 19th century?? By then the vast majority of the native population had died from it. Give me a break. Why don't YOU read a real history book instead of regurgitating hippie bullshit.

i'm the guy who first mentioned it and immediately after inagreendase posted what he did, i said "oh, looks like i was wrong, but here's why i had reason to think otherwise..."

Early copies don't mean ur right. It's an OFFICIAL release date, check their website if ur not sure. www.g7welcomingcommittee.com

No one was trying to blaze you, but the Propagandhi album comes out on the 18th, jeez. Deal with it.

Why would this suburban dad come across Howard Zinn while trying to improve his linguistics?

Uh oh! Someone confused Howard Zinn with Noam Chomsky! History = Linguistics = Boring Political Theory. You heard it here first!

all in all, the super bowl suffle is a great song.

Given that the word "genocide" is less than 70 years old and that it has a legal and distinct definition, it's tough to say. Regardless, Columbus = Bad News Bears. A ruthless and brutal guy responsible for countless atrocity. That said, I stand by my assessment that considering the ideologies involved, the politics, technologies, means, etc. the Holocaust was a unique form of mass murder, a bureaucratic campaign within a technocracy.

Is "devious" the right word?

read voices of a people's history, that's where i'm getting my facts from. estimates were that they were killing people in the millions, just mass genocide. hence the comparison of columbus - the guy who brought the destruction and death to the new world, to hitler, who did it much more deviously, but five centuries later.

Posted by GreenVandal on 2005-10-11 19:20:03
My Score:

That last line (before the note of course) was brilliant. Good job Brian!!

Read the text, my friend. No one actually said that Hitler personally killed anyone. And sure, way to go, you recognize the sociological problem of the banality of evil, That said, Hitler, like Eichmann, was directly involved in the Final Solution (war crimes and genocide). Columbus had people's hands chopped off for not bringing him back enough gold, but I'm sure he wasn't the one witelding the blade. And, of course, it wasn't really "the German people" who were doing the killing, but so it goes. Smallpox didn't really factor into things as catostrophically at the end of the 15th century as it did in the 19th century (ie Lord Jeffrey Amherst, etc). So, forgive me if I find your assertion that everyone "get their facts straight" kind of irritating, self-indulgent, and erroneous.

Hitler never killed anyone (except perhaps his neice), the German people did. Columbus was PERHAPS directly involved in the deaths of thousands of people, not millions. Smallpox was the real killer, no matter how intent the Spaniards were in their attempts to wipe out the natives in one way or another. Get your facts straight.

It comes out today, October 11th.
xo
Zak
THICK

i also bought it yesterday (in the Bronx) so i know it's available. i was just pointing out the official release.

When you consider the ideologies, technologies, politics, and means involved, it's really rather inappropriate to put Columbus next to Hitler.

That said, I'm well aware of the monumental campaign waged against the Arawaks, in its extent and brutality. And, of course, the Columbus indignation is elevated because he's the "bold explorer who sailed the ocean blue" who we honor with a national holiday.

Let's not get too carried away, though, with our Columbus / Hitler comparisons

Exactly, all Hitler did was try to wipe a whole race of people off of the planet, Columbus accomplished that.

my only problem with the review was the very last line

if people are that stupid that they don't get it, let it be their problem, not yours

Hmm. Well, Mr. inagreendase, I guess that's that. It comes out on the 18th.

Funny because the store stocked the shelves, yes (pesky indie stores.. Tower would never do that), but they also have it up on the big chalk board noting upcoming releases as being out today (the 11th). So, I put two and two together and was, nonetheless, technically wrong, though for personal and practical purposes, correct. I guess Zinn would tell me to consider the sources of my information.

Kudos for your http formatting and web-based research.

My how I love that Punk Revival Style within the Rock Genre.

Has anyone ever heard Zinn talk about the war in the Phillipines and pineapples? High-larious.

I bought the new Propagandhi at a record store in New York this morning. So... umm.. I don't know what to tell you chump.

You could probably just tell us the case: The store was selling it early, as plenty indie record shops are willing to do (break street dates on at least relatively anticipated albums).

Proof it comes out the 18th: [1] [2] [3]

I went to a public high school and then a private one. Zinn's People's History was taught in the 11th grade US History class at the private school. And the school was a very traditional jacket and tie type place. Regardless, it should be a part of every American high school student's education.

Let's not get too carried away, though, with our Columbus / Hitler comparisons.

I bought the new Propagandhi at a record store in New York this morning. So... umm.. I don't know what to tell you chump. At least the Yankees lost. You can take solace in that.

nice little review concept. good job Brian.

and the Prop comes out next week chump.

Ah, I get it. Nice. At first I was all "aaahhhhhahaha ripped condom" but now I see the joke. Nice review.

zinn is great... fuckin people's history of the united states should be taught in every public school nationwide. fuck this intelligent design bullshit, teach kids that columbus day is named after a guy that killed more people than hitler.

"I'm liberal wahhhhhh."

hahah.

- jones the bones

- stevejones8770@yahoo.com

No Propagandhi review on the day of it's release?

No Hilary Duff review?

No reviews that are more substantive rather than relying on character gimmicks?

Zinn's CDs on Alternative Tentacles, particularly the first one (double disc named after his book from Reed) and the Heros and Martyrs double disc are excellent.

Chomsky's stuff is, I think, very different from Zinn's. Zinn is certainly more personable and accessible. He contributes a genorosity to his wit, humor, and mischief. And he's always pushing forward (though some could say that his work has been a bit of a neutral train these days, but hey, he was born in 1922).

That said, the notion of Chomsky and logic is a funny one given that he's probably the smartest person alive (and I say this completely seriously and in terms of raw intelligence, breadth, and capability, not necessarily in consumptive terms)

yeah. havent written in it in awhile. isnt it linked?

is the 160 cut off?

- j the b

Steve,

Do you?!??

-Will

Howard Zinn is great, I prefer his stuff Chomsky's, sorry if that's blasphemous, but I've always thought that Howard Zinn backed up his opinions more logically.

will,

do you really have a xanga?

- jones the bones

- stevejones87770@yahoo.com

Zinn is a smart guy... Well, I guess that's pretty obvious since he writes books and I write 200-word record reviews... And in my Xanga.

-Will

wait brian has a son