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The Dillinger Four Leak drama wrap-up

Contributed by an Anonymous Source. Posted by aubin on Wednesday, September 24, 2008 at 8:00 PM (EDT)

There has been a surprising amount of drama regarding the recent leak of Dillinger Four's highly anticipated new album, Civil War. The record is due out October 14, 2008 and is the band's first new record in 6 years.

One of the more surprising stories comes from Mitch Clem of Nothing Nice to Say fame who has been involved in a heated discussion with one of the album's producers regarding the leak and his comic's take on the event. The entire exchange is visible here.

At the same time, Punknews.org alumni and current Alternative Press love slave Scott Heisel posted his thoughts here. The alledged album leaker himself came clean here. Current Punknews.org editor, Jesse Raub elaborates on the entire brouhaha on his blog here.

Punknews.org does not support or condone leaking albums. It's not just about the commerce; there are many people who work on an album like this one, it is fair for people to at least be compensated for the time they took away from other jobs, families and friends in order to put together an album for you. The record is just a few weeks away, so just hold on and it'll be worth it.

If you're excited about the record, take a moment and pre-order the album now.

Games and Technology (411 comments)

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Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not responsible for them in any way. Seriously.

TeddyTexas (September 24, 2008)

"I had a rough year" is a lame defense.

2+ Replies

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, it's easy to brush off when someone you love is murdered. Ass.

TeddyTexas (September 24, 2008)

it's the goddamn twinkie defense. look it up.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

I know about the Twinkie defense.

Aaron has had a shit year. So have a lot us (his good friends). He had something to cheer us up. It got out of hand. He shouldn't have done it, but it's not like he was out to ruin Fat.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

No. The thing is, I don't download leaks! I just don't.

I actually love the music Fat puts out, and they are really hardworking people.

Man, I just was excited about a great album, thats fucking all. Thats where this needs to end.

Scott Heisel didn't do shit wrong, on a professional level, in dealing with reporting the leak. Plain and simple.

I wasn't the only person who shared the stream, but I was naive and vocal about doing so. Things have to be able to fall somewhere, they fell on my this time.

Nothing changes the fact that this album deserves to be looked at in only a light of, "This is a great album, and is deserving of attention."

Go to their shows, buy their merch, give them a place to stay.

End of story.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

The Mitch Clem exchange is classic. The "Dave" fellow is a fool of Bemis proportions.

6+ Replies

Cos (September 24, 2008)

Mitch Clem is a fucking idiot. He obviously doesn't get it. His responses were web 2.0 idiocy.

I'd be nice if his comics were actually funny. Every now again, someone will link to one of his comics, and I'll inevitably be disappointed. It would also be nice if he learned out to draw, but he should concentrate on the "funny" thing first.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

I've never read such a well thought out response.

cort (September 24, 2008)

were you working on the dillinger 4 record too?

kencollapse (September 24, 2008)

I paid Mitch Clem $150 to make that comic.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Hell yes. It's was like with every response he was digging a deeper hole and by the end he was too embarrassed to admit that he was an idiot.

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

Actually, what'd really be nice is if Mitch Clem did a new NN2S comic more often than once every 5 months. I realize the comic has sorta passed its heyday and he's working on other things, but I do enjoy reading it. Every strip certainly isn't a gem, but within the entire run there are definitely a few sidebursters (the "Descendents Cover" strip being one of my favs).

That said, I don't see anything wrong with the strips in question. The Fletcher character is adamantly against having the bootleg (albeit because he's afraid of legal repercussions), while I'm certain that in the upcoming installments Blake will also express the necessity for artists to be financially supported in order for us to be able to listen to good music (Blake being the more understanding and level-headed of the pair). I look forward to seeing how the strip plays out now that it has actually becom

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Rudy87 (September 24, 2008)

guess this started a civil war of sorts in the community, eh?...

3+ Replies

MySafetysHarvard (September 24, 2008)

Count it!

Rudy87 (September 24, 2008)

Lincoln would be proud

AnarchyPants (September 25, 2008)

I like how Mitch just says "You Dummy." at one point. Simple yet effective.

JerryCola (September 24, 2008)

You know most people just want to hear the product from a band that they love as soon as possible.

I think it'd be a pretty cool idea for a label like Fat Wreck to do something like set up a really early pre-order for people to buy the CD and LP and when you purchase the pre-order you get a download link to be able to listen to the album before it arrives. Then a couple of months later when all the CD's and LP's are pressed people will get their physical product with the artwork & etc in the mail.

I think it'd be an interesting idea for a label to tryout.

5+ Replies

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

Suburban Home did that with the LeGrecia album.

JerryCola (September 24, 2008)

well I guess that counts

Evil_Dead (September 24, 2008)

Bridge 9 does that.

LooseKanonYankee (September 24, 2008)

Im not a big fan of most of their Bridge 9's bands (I LOVE crime in stereo though)
but those guys have it down perfectly

I ordered selective wreckage on vinyl
I got to download the mp3's right after I bought it
The record came with a CD of all the tracks
and it arrived today (almost a week before its in stores)

I wish all labels were like Bridge 9

victim (September 24, 2008)

Also you get the lyrics as a download as well, or at least I did when I ordered Still Nothing Moves You

wallrock (September 26, 2008)

Lucero also did this with Rebels, Rouges, and it was part of a package deal where the pre-order included the mp3s, a set of pins and a shirt.

10-4Eleanor (September 24, 2008)

But what about the money?!

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Depends on what you're definition of "leak" is; if by giving out a stream is a leak then so be it, but I think the "leaker" should be dubbed to the guy who ripped it. Can't wait 'til this is all over, but I feel kind of bad for the few bitter things I said about Scott. So, sorry.

I don't believe downloading in any form is cool.

4+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

why?

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

To what?

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

Why feel bad about Scott Heisel. And why is downloading bad? Besides what people tell you. I'd like to hear an original reason as to why i shouldn't download something. Weather I'm going to buy it or not.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

I feel bad about Scott Heisel because I don't know the dude. I may be in highschool, but I know I am better than to ridicule a person with very little facts and evidence to back it up. As for downloading... The first time I ever did was for the '59 Sound and it ruined the excitement of waiting and getting "that new record" like it was when I got say... American Idiot. I guess I feel bad for the produces and people, but the dowloading thing has more to do with sentimental value for a record.

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

I'm surprised by your response. And can respect that reason for not downloading. I totally relate. Thank you for not giving me some bullshit reason about people being paid that the older members of the .org would have easily jumped to. It honestly warms my heart to read that the kids are still getting it right.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Scott Heisel, at the end of the day, did nothing wrong in reporting this to Fat. That's commendable. I know I wasn't the only one who got hit with this, but I mean, whatever. Thats unimportant.

What I had a problem with was him giving out my name in a public forum (Vinyl Collective). Thats all.

maverick (scott) (September 25, 2008)

Your name was visible for less than a half-hour on the non-vinyl subforum of a vinyl collecting message board. And it never would've happened had your good buddy MattRamone decided to attack me without any sort of actual knowledge of what happened. He's your dog, so take responsibility for when he shits all over the rug.

-Scott

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Matt has little to no sphincter control, it's really no one's fault. Unless you believe in God. Then it's his fault.

badbrain (September 25, 2008)

Eh, I get the same excited feeling when I first download an album and hear it after being excited about it for a while. When I order the record I still come home every day waiting for it to come in, and then get excited when it does, finally having that tangible piece of music in my hands. I guess I just attach more excitement to the music itself rather than the actual material item

MilesQToast (September 25, 2008)

the 59 sound was the first thing you downloaded?

LooseKanonYankee (September 24, 2008)

I don't download anything because
love having the artwork and lyrics.
being in a band, I know how much thought
goes into those areas of an album
and Id hate to take away form the full impact
of the album

plus Ive met some people who dont even know the names
of songs they have downloaded, simply refering to songs
as "Track #__" and that fucking depresses me

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Agree 100%.

badbrain (September 25, 2008)

You can download an album and also buy an album. Most of the LP's and albums I have I just download also because I'm too lazy to load them onto my computer off the physical album itself. I guess there are people who don't ever buy the shit they download but I don't really understand that

colin (September 24, 2008)

you're right on the leaker should be the ripper but since that can't be proven, someone has to "take the fall" as everyone needs a scapegoat.

i think downloading is good. i downloaded the D4 album, realized i don't really like it and now can save my money. maybe that's just what fat is scared of.

but this is all fucking stupid. it reminds me of metallica circa 1999. ugh.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, really. Honestly, to say the drama is "wrapped up" is lame without a statement from Fat. But that may just show how much this doesn't fucking matter.

For what I think about downloading, go look what I said to 14theroad above.

Your website rules.

colin (September 24, 2008)

i get the sentimentality issue - that "something new" feeling, but also, like with the 59 sound, i didn't know the lyrics, so i still got that good feeling, taking the record out of the case, putting it on, sitting by the speakers and reading along to the songs you know? gives them that first time all over again bit.

that actually still happens to me, even with old albums. i bought "insomniac" on vinyl, haven't had a tangible copy in years, sat down and read the lyrics for the first time since i was probably 16 and re-lived one of my favorite albums ever. so there is a sentimentality i think for tangibility that will always be superior to simply the audio enjoyment.

and thanks.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

I don't listen to records "for fun", I usually listen for some sort of emotional stimulation, so, for me, the whole package has to be there; the wait is part of the equation.

I can see what you mean though, I guess it's all personal; it ruined the '59 Sound for me. It's an amazing record, but it just doesn't hit me the way it would if I bought it. I remember the exact moments of when I bought almost every cd.. I am also majorly OCD, so that could be part of it to... hahaha

colin (September 24, 2008)

i do as well, i guess though, i've been downloading music my whole life, you know? if it wasn't for napster i never would have gotten into punk rock, i lived in a tiny rural new hampshire town. no scene, no record store, nothing. so downloading has been a part of that excitement in a way, each part of the process has become it's own meaningful aspect.

i still remember the big ones - my favorite albums i remember buying, where, when and why. and now that i do a lot of mail order stuff i feel i lose some of that, which is too bad.

but i feel you on the emotional stimulation - i don't listen to music for fun, which is probably why i listen to a wide variety of music as opposed to just "orgcore" or "punk" / "hardcore." different strokes for different folks, but i'm also growing up now. 25 you start to just not care.

but this situation

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mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

I'll get back to you in 9 years when I'm 25 and see if I still feel the same way.

But yeah, you speak the truth. This whole situation is stupid.

colin (September 24, 2008)

jesus christ i'm old.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

You are not. My grandfather is 80, that's old.

kneel (September 24, 2008)

oh god, not this shit again.

let us be old dude.

haha

canaandrumzz (September 25, 2008)

To be fair when you talk with steve and them about shows you saw back in 94 I think you're old. But I fully expect to hear kids think the same thing about me when I start hitting those years.

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

lol @ getting paid for music.

1+ Reply

BlackRonin (September 28, 2008)

youre stupid

deadelectromix (September 24, 2008)

This is going to be massive.
I don't really see a huge problem with a leaked album, but I can see why someone would be pissed. Not everyone's like me, they're not all going to go out and buy the record when they can just listen to it on their computer. It's a really fucking good record too, and it's pretty much what's gotten me into D4, so I'm definitely going to buy it. You know, when my mom gives me my allowance.

2+ Replies

spoon_of_grimbo (September 25, 2008)

yeah, if i hadn't found the leak of this, i probably wouldn't have been even slightly interested in the band. the combination of the hype they get on here, and the leak, have gotten me into D4, and not only do i totally intend to buy the album when it comes out, but i've also bought "versus god" since hearing the civilwar leak.

i still don't see the big deal about leaks - i mean, once the cd is actually released, it'll be ripped onto PCs and put on every file sharing/uploading network going, within hours. if the main beef with early leaks is the fact that it somehow makes a new release less special, then surely the people who download early are only spoiling it for themselves, and not for anyone else?

i'd like to point out btw, that whenever i download albums, i delete ones i don't like, and ALWAYS go and buy the ones i do like (unless th

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murdock (September 25, 2008)

I just went and bought 2 D4 LP's and will preorder CIVIL WAR simply because of the publicity they've gotten here about the leak. Discovered a great band...That's my 2 cents.

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

No comment on the Mitch Clem deal. He's just a dude who makes a cartoon. I don't really like it but that's more just the humor not the content.
Anyhow, the whole thing is funny. Digital downloading impacts album sales, end of story. Maybe you buy it, maybe most of the people here will buy it but many more won't. By being apart of that distribution, whether it's giving it to a few friends or just being part of a torrent for that file (I have no idea how that shit works) you're damaging the sales. And that's a bummer.
-Dante

4+ Replies

Cottage_Cheese (September 24, 2008)

At least so many people are interested in their music. These guys have steady day jobs. They're not 18 year old naive cunts who expect to sell a million records and make a living by touring for 7 months out the year.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

What about the guys whose day job is to produce albums?

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Maybe need a re-think in career?

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

Again, this is the narrow perspective that is damaging the whole deal. The band doesn't pay for the recording, pressing and distribution of the album. If you want ever album to sound like BTMI! Album Minus Band, then that's fine. However, if you want an album that requires demoing, a studio and mastering, don't expect it to exist on this plan.

The Weakerthans made a good point when I interviewed them. Seeing the band live, supports the band but it doesn't support the label, the record or the recording process. And some folks are cool with that but I enjoy good quality recording.
-Dante

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Agreed.

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

my feelings exactly.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2007/08/Stop%20Making%20Se nse.jpg

Cottage_Cheese (September 24, 2008)

Considering I don't download free music and I am one of the few that still purchase CDs and vinyls, I have no guilt when it comes to leaked records. I enjoyed "Situation Comedy" and chances are I will purchase "Civil War." I agree, piracy is hurting musicians. But in the case of D4, they have day jobs, which is why they rarely tour and took 6 years for a new record. They aren't expecting to sell hundreds of thousands of records (the same goes for the Fat Wreck crew). Dante, I'm sure you feel special about buying records and merch, but you can't change the downloading habits of all the orgers.

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

Thank you for bringing a shred of sanity into all this. D4 doesn't even care about all this. Why should we? If you're some cunt in a cunt band trying to make money off of music then I don't feel bad for you. You've got the best job in the world you asshole. All you have to do is tour and when you get to my town, here's some money - record in my hand - thank you. And if you can't do that well you can most certainly get fucked if you're going to complain. Why should anyone be able to live off of music? It's such an assanine idea. Once you get into music for the money it looses everything. Now let's all sit around like a bunch of hipster pricks and talk about the economics of the music industry and smoke some cloves while trying our damnedest do come across as intellectuals.

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

You do realize that every single album you have listed under your favorites had an entire paid staff that helped to record them. It wasn't just the bands that made those records happen. The record labels had to pay for equipment, studio time, staff, ect. To assume that you're going to have music of the same quality without any money involved is a fantasy.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

What's your favorite album?

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, everything should be free.
If a band wants to give out their record, fine. Record it and put it our yourself (look at BTMI! or Defiance, Ohio). You have other people invest in your record than it's no longer your place to say, "It should be free" (save situations where labels agree a head of time, like said bands). Do not take the money to record and tour and then be like, "fuck it everyone should have it". That's cheating someone who invested in your music.
-Dante

Cottage_Cheese (September 24, 2008)

The dude that leaked most of Chinese Democracy was arrested and could face up to five years in prison. Leaking the new D4 will warrant at least 15 years.

2+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

and he'll be out before the record will.

Rudy87 (September 24, 2008)

correction: before the next record will be out

Cheesetits (September 24, 2008)

Meh.

2+ Replies

FranklinStein (September 25, 2008)

my thoughts exactly.

punkbytheounce (September 25, 2008)

Agreed. I'm pretty fucking sick of hearing about it, to be honest.

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

posting in an epic thread.

Trauma16 (September 24, 2008)

Everything surrounding this leak is worthy of some sort of Orgcore soap opera.
Not sure what that "Dave" was getting worked up about, Mitch was doing what Mitch does best.
Heisel, I dont think did anything wrong. Reported a leak and the dude responsible got caught, its how things go.

Cheesetits (September 24, 2008)

Wait, what does this have to do with Dillinger Escape Plan again?

2+ Replies

listofdemands (September 25, 2008)

i love you.
-nic

Tudor (September 25, 2008)

Hahah, nice I like.

kraze (September 24, 2008)

Read it all, awesome.
I'd suggest everyone read it all before posting too.

1+ Reply

LinoleumMagazine (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, it took forever to read all that. This will be fun to read at work tomorrow.

the_problem_with_fire (September 24, 2008)

i don't listen to albums before they are released. part of it is that i don't want to "spoil" it for myself and another part is that i'm too lazy. i buy physical copies of music. with that said... how is this album? i've really enjoyed the one song i heard. is the whoel album similar to this? i've heard some of their past stuff but it never stuck with me.

DreeeamWeaver (September 24, 2008)

you know the Org is passionate about D4 when they make posts like this.

TheOneTrueBill (September 24, 2008)

yawn

2+ Replies

skankin_in_the_pit (September 24, 2008)

Are you watching the Sox game tonight? Why the fuck would I care about this lame scene drama, when I can go nuts calling that shitty 2nd base ump every swear word I know.

I may start hating D4 simply because of their proximity to the fucking Minnesota Twins.

TheOneTrueBill (September 24, 2008)

I'm not going to say that that call cost the sox the game, because they had plenty of opportunities...

but that call cost the sox the game.

hitlerbadzakgood (September 24, 2008)

this shouldve been out years ago. i would say that the years of anticipation owes us a free, early listen.

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

I think they want us to shut up about it. haha

Archangel (September 24, 2008)

The whole exchange is worth reading. Mitch comes off as intelligent, mature, and level-headed, while this Dave guy sounds like an ass and abuses paragraph breaks.

Anyway, I don't care about this band and might wind up downloading the album just to spite everyone involved. Who knows.

5+ Replies

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

Make sure you buy the new Schoolyard Heroes though.

RacketMagazine (September 24, 2008)

Ryann and the fellas are rad.

Archangel (September 25, 2008)

Jesus. Might have to register a new name.

TylerK (September 24, 2008)

Before this album leaked, I must admit that I was never really into D4, but the ridiculous hype of this c.d was unavoidable. After having listened to this, I now thoroughly enjoy this band, and will be buying this RECORD when I attend the SHOW they will be playing in the upcoming weeks in my city. So, if there's anyone else out there like myself, you would probably agree this album leaking will make you want to buy this, as well as go to the shows and REALLY support the band, and also add bonus hype. Just my opinion.

Evil_Dead (September 24, 2008)

I'm not into D4 at all, and I'm sick of hearing about this. I'm seeing them 3 times in 4 days and I couldn't care less. What's the big deal about this band? I've heard a song or two by 'em and they weren't all that great. I really wanna see what the hype behind 'em is, so someone recommend me an album (and don't tell me "omgz C I V I L W A R." Why the hell does everyone type it like that anyway?)

scientistrock (September 24, 2008)

I gotta be honest, Mitch is being kind of a dick.

4+ Replies

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, i got to say, by reading that exchange, Mitch did come off as kind of an ass. Not to say he was wrong though, but still....

the_problem_with_fire (September 24, 2008)

maybe i didn't follow it all but he seemed pretty reasonable... it was just a comic. supposed to be funny. that dave guy seemed really harsh about it. i can understand where he is coming from but he just made a lot of petty, harsh insults that had no place in the context of the situation

scientistrock (September 24, 2008)

But Dave wasn't really being combative, Mitch kept making jokes out of stuff. I mean, it's just how I read it, but really, neither of them needed to say any of what they said.

badbrain (September 25, 2008)

Dave wasn't being combative? Did we read the same email exchange?

deadelectromix (September 24, 2008)

I think out of the two, Mitch was being more mature. I hate reading internet arguments though, it always seems like both sides are trying to be more sophisticated while proving the other person wrong. Both sides are usually being foolish.

I do like Mitch's first response though, that's where the conversation should have ended.

thebiglebowski (September 24, 2008)

who wants the dead to me rip I have?

4+ Replies

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

I do! Send it to me:
mailbag@fatwreck.com
Thanks!
-Dante

veganboyjosh (September 24, 2008)

i'm calling it now. best post in this thread.

Rudy87 (September 24, 2008)

I second that

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Haven't you learned ANYTHING from this? As soon as Scooter fishes his phone out of his flavor saver, you're toast.

alahanno (September 25, 2008)

i want it . how do i get it from you

scientistrock (September 24, 2008)

Scott's right, he didn't get anyone fired, but man, that blog came across as really condescending.

5+ Replies

ConsolationPrizefighter (September 24, 2008)

Condescending is the only tone Heisel knows.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Not a surprise. It's hard to be holier-than-thou all day when you then turn around and write a fawning cover story on From Ashes Flat Iron or whoever.

Nameless (September 24, 2008)

Agreed. I thought the not following up hoping he'd get the idea was particularly harsh.

Maybe I'm missing something, but at least just say no.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

I agree, that goes for any boss anywhere, ignoring and dragging people along is just rude and a pussy way to live your life.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

That's what I don't like about him. Everything he says seems condescending, even if he doesn't mean it.

I always thought it was kind of harsh the way people talked about him, even when he was on staff here. But then you read his posts and it's like he's talking down to everyone.

Who needs that.

TylerK (September 24, 2008)

Before this album leaked, I must admit that I was never really into D4, but the ridiculous hype of this c.d was unavoidable. After having listened to this, I now thoroughly enjoy this band, and will be buying this RECORD when I attend the SHOW they will be playing in the upcoming weeks in my city. So, if there's anyone else out there like myself, you would probably agree this album leaking will make you want to buy this, as well as go to the shows and REALLY support the band, and also add bonus hype. Just my opinion.

4+ Replies

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

But after the album was released, you would have never listened to the band? Your story is childish and a poor defense of illegal downloads.

David_Arquette (September 24, 2008)

A free download is more easily accessible than a 12-dollar CD at a store. That, combined with the inordinate amount of hype surrounding it, is probably what led this guy to listen to the band when he may not have done so otherwise. Pretty straightforward.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

Ah yes, the hype made me do it defense.

David_Arquette (September 24, 2008)

Better than the Chewbacca defense.

Nameless (September 24, 2008)

If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit!

TylerK (September 24, 2008)

I believe in 'test driving a car before I buy it' and subsequently going to it's shows. I didn't rip this album and distribute it, I just sampled it for the 20 or so odd minutes I had before the "window closed", and while this is immoral and I in no way want to take away from this band, i'll be damned if getting to preview something a few months before it comes out makes me a terrible person.

badbrain (September 25, 2008)

I disagree. Not so much anymore, but during most of my teenage years I discovered countless bands through downloading that I otherwise would never have heard. As a result I bought countless records and attended countless shows that I otherwise would never have bought or attended had I not first heard that band by downloading some of their songs. This worked for me, but I recognize that I guess there are some kids who don't ever buy music or attend the shows of the bands they download, which I don't support, but I also don't understand how that mindset can exist so I don't really know.

tombagel (September 24, 2008)

I'd go on and quote a bunch of unfounded statements from the leaker, but those endless paragraphs of excuses made me yawn.

"They've lost their best-selling acts to major labels (Against Me! Rise Against, Anti Flag to name a few)"

No. NOFX and the Gimmes are their top sellers.

2+ Replies

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, but it's silly to say that the loss of those bands hasn't hurt Fat.

tombagel (September 24, 2008)

In my opinion, at this point Fat Mike is not worried about making millions anymore. I've been a NOFX fan for (too) long and money doesn't seem to be that big of a problem to them anymore. If they lose some (as people could see on Backstage Passport), they have their finances pretty much figured out and eventually that will be covered. This D4 story seems to be about Fat Mike liking this band too much to let it go, and that's what matters the most to Fat - the hype over bands - and that sells.

jacknife737 (September 24, 2008)

He (and NoFx) may not be, but Fat Wreck has been hurt pretty hard as of late, word has it that they've been laying off people. There have been a few discussions on here about it during the last few months. I'm sure they'll be alright, but at the moment, things aren't looking too bright.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Yeah, it sucks. It's gonna happen to everyone involved in teh industry eventually, and that sucks too.

I feel really bad not supporting my local record store anymore. I order all my music from vinylcollective or no idea or whoever's got the record i want. In Australia I can't afford to pay $30 a record when I can order four of them from the States for the same price.

And I still remember buying my first Against Me cd and my first Against Me vinyl from the local record store back in 2003. And that reminds me of a better time in my life. And to think that they might close down sucks.

I know I went off on a tangent. But the point is, shitty things happening across the record industry.

jacknife737 (September 25, 2008)

There is a local store that i'd love to support, but i'm a student, and don't have a lot of disposable income, so i order most of my music from online. I can get about two cds at interpunk (including shipping) for the price of one cd at this local indie place, its a shame too.

hobojew (September 24, 2008)

Blah blah who fucking cares.

enossel (September 24, 2008)

Maybe I'm an old fashioned out of the loop DIY purist. But when does an artist DESERVE to be paid for their music? I can't tell you how many times I would have paid people money out of my own pocket to listen to my band's music.

To me, making music is something you pour all your own hard earned money into, not expecting any kind of financial compensation for, and working all year long at your shitty job so you can go out on tour for one summer and expect to come back completely broke, and be completely fine with it.

When does the transition go from that, into something you deserve money for? Quit your wining about how people are "stealing" your album, and be fucking glad that they even give you a half hour of their lives to even give you the fucking time of day.

Money cheapens art.

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Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

It's not the artists, it's the technicians behind the album.

the_other_scott (September 25, 2008)

you're not paying for the music, you're paying for the recording. the reason that people have heard of D4, and not your band, is that somebody else (the label) has put in a lot of money so that this happens.

you're not an out of the loop, old fashioned DIY purist, you're an idealist with no real notion of how things work.

Spooky (September 24, 2008)

Less Than Jake's comment bar is not stoked..

Wentz_Equals_Death (September 24, 2008)

didn't hear the leak, stoked for the album, never liked mitch clem & he seems like an asshole in his exchange with dave, most important issue brought up here is that jesse has the new akimbo record and it seems to be unavailable everywhere in the USA... did it get delayed?

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Wentz_Equals_Death (September 24, 2008)

let me clarify quickly -- never liked mitch clem's jokes. he is probably an okay guy

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

Shut the fuck up! He has that record?! God I want that so bad. Truly it will melt faces, even of those who have never heard it. Many will die, many more will be confused.
-Dante

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

leak, leak, leak, leak...

Jesse (September 25, 2008)

Bwahahahahahahaha...

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Personally, this drama was dying out anyway, Punknews should have just left it be... as well as Mitch Clem. But damn if he isn't clever.

1234go (September 24, 2008)

My several bits on this

1. The kid who ripped the stream is an asshole. He abused a trust and despite his "boo hoo i made a mistake" shit I don't think it's unreasonable for the people who trusted him (Fat) to say "never again". You pulled a real dick move here and now you have to deal with it. That goes for the magazine or website or whatever he worked for. As far as Heisel and all the other shit I don't know enough about it to comment.

2. Mitch's Comic wasn't funny (and I know funny!) and despite his "there's a whole story arc coming" deal you can't expect people to see it that way if you don't put "to be continued" or "part 1 of a 3 part epic" or some shit. The comic makes him look a bit toolish. And believe me I like the guy as a person. I think he knows full well that Fat isn't out there stalking every reviewer in the world and blac

show rest of commentMy several bits on this

1. The kid who ripped the stream is an asshole. He abused a trust and despite his "boo hoo i made a mistake" shit I don't think it's unreasonable for the people who trusted him (Fat) to say "never again". You pulled a real dick move here and now you have to deal with it. That goes for the magazine or website or whatever he worked for. As far as Heisel and all the other shit I don't know enough about it to comment.

2. Mitch's Comic wasn't funny (and I know funny!) and despite his "there's a whole story arc coming" deal you can't expect people to see it that way if you don't put "to be continued" or "part 1 of a 3 part epic" or some shit. The comic makes him look a bit toolish. And believe me I like the guy as a person. I think he knows full well that Fat isn't out there stalking every reviewer in the world and blacklisting those they suspect of leaking material. I think this is a situation where they could track it back to one specific person and they nailed his ass for it in a really reasonable way. They cut him off. They legitimatly could take him to court but that's not how they do. The fucking FBI is showing up at mother fuckers houses over this shit. They told this kid and the place he works for that they won't be sending them shit ever again. Sounds like a reasonable response.

3. Dave (if it's the guy I think it is) is a really good guy who got a little hot under the collar when it seemed like someone was portraying a situation to be a little different than it really was and essentially calling a bunch of his friends big brother-esque dicks. He made some assumptions about Mitch as a person that he shouldn't have but when you're pissed you lash out.

4. I bet D4 doesn't give a fuck in the slightest.

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deadelectromix (September 24, 2008)

http://www.mitchclem.com/nothingnice/229/
I just think Mitch was trying to be satirical with the whole "Fat Money making machine" and the goon squad coming to the house. I can see how someone could take that the wrong way though.

1234go (September 24, 2008)

Personally I don't see the satire in it. I don't see where he's winking and nodding and saying the folks at Fat are A-OK. Satire can be tricky though.

deadelectromix (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, I'm a little iffy on it too.
I'm going to go with Mitch in good faith though, and from the exchange he had with that Dave guy it sounds like that might be how it ends.

sXenester (September 24, 2008)

See how it says "Fired! 2" at the top of the comic? I feel it's implied there are more coming and Dave jumped the gun.

RedScare (September 24, 2008)

Oh goody, so we're still in for some BIG LAFFS! I can't wait to see what happens next!

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

I think it was pretty sarcastic, to be honest.

Besides, it was coming out of Fletcher's mouth. Don't people think that cartoonists write in character?

RedScare (September 24, 2008)

I agree with everything Stevo said. He's 4 outta 4 on this one.

RacketMagazine (September 24, 2008)

Whoa whoa whoa, how did we pull a dick move?

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

I don't want to put words in Stevo's mouth (just other things) but I think he meant the magazine has to deal with it. Not that they pulled a dick move.
-Dante

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Well, I thought everything was dealt with, but even the people who say they don't care are either lying or they are trying to be as int0rw3bz famous as Aaron's gotten himself.

1234go (September 25, 2008)

Well you as a whole didn't... but someone on your staff did and when someone on your staff fucks up it reflects poorly on everyone. I think it's understandable that the stigma wouldn't just stop at the individual responsible.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

True, I support Aaron as a person and as a friend, but I couldn't support him in this.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Dave may be a really good guy, but I have to say he came off like a complete cock in that exchange.

Cos (September 25, 2008)

I was trying to make the point earlier--the comic is not fucking funny.

Insult me, insult things I care about... just make it funny. Don't resort to 2 year old "don't tase me bro!" jokes (They weren't that funny to begin with)

openedground (September 25, 2008)

haha okay that makes the joke a little funnier. A lot of us were definitely in our younger days like, "wow, a comic that references the music we like!" and glossed over the fact that Mitch Clem can't tell a joke or draw very well for that matter.

AnarchyPants (September 25, 2008)

It's never been easy to make money as a musisican...

It still isn't.

Trauma16 (September 24, 2008)

I blame the Org for getting us all hyped up with the April Fools day joke.

IanIsSuperRad (September 24, 2008)

Maybe this is just a lame excuse, but I feel in order to stay relevent with what's going on in the music world, I need to download albums. I live in a very very rural area. If your cd isn't in Best Buy or Walmart, you can't get it without using half a take of gas to drive to a indie store. I also don't have a credit card so I can't buy online. One thing I always make sure to do when a band comes through town though is make it to their show, donate money if it's a free show, and when I have the money I always buy their album or shirt. But how am I supposed to know how awesome "Insert New Band Here" is and I should really go see them if I didn't download their album? Which enables me to be able to actually sing along with the songs when they come through town. I try my hardest to support the bands I love and they fact is, I wouldn't love as many bands as I

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1234go (September 24, 2008)

Most places online take paypal and accept cash/money orders. It's called Mail Order. Independent music has thrived on it for over 30 years. Get in to it.

gnarlynarwhals (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, you definitely can buy music over the internet without a credit card. Interpunk, the website which was linked to above for the preorder, definitely will accept cash or checks. But I agree with everything else. I likely would never have purchased a single cd or concert ticket or band t-shirt if it wasn't for Napster and everything that has followed.

McFlynnTHM (john) (September 25, 2008)

Word. My CD/record collection has grown by a ridiculous amount since I started using Napster.

LilacWine (September 25, 2008)

Same here. I've found so many new bands by downloading one of their albums illegally. If I like it, then I buy it and I also end up buying the rest of their catalog and some merch and concert tickets. I use it as a way to find and preview new bands, not to rob hard working musicians out of the few cents that they have. Even though it's still illegal, they end up making more money from me anyway...

openedground (September 25, 2008)

you're young.

kingofsuck (September 25, 2008)

Yeah, it's kind of a lame excuse. People were able to find and listen to new bands just fine without the internet, nobody what part of the country they were in.

the_other_scott (September 25, 2008)

get a debit card that's backed by a credit card. any bank has one. problem solved.

loreng (September 25, 2008)

I grew up in a rural area too--before the internet, but I managed. Shows didn't come to town, either. There are ways. All you have to do is put in the effort.

colin (September 24, 2008)

all over what, some fucking intangible possible promise of money?

for one thing, actual leak sites like what.cd wouldn't carry this because it was a transcode so the "mass populace" wouldn't have a chance to hear this leak. the only people interested are the ones who care about the band and would presumably buy the record if they liked it.

so what, a dude gave away a password to a stream to some friends. whatever. going and crying to fat mike for what, some sense of dignity in the "record industry"? i thought this was about the music? the album is GOING to leak before it comes out. this is the 21st century. whether it's now or in a few weeks won't change who hears it, only how far in advance they do.

all this did was create a good for nothing shit storm. but it gave those of us who just dislike heisel in general some more reason to.

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baldsteve (September 24, 2008)

Bravo. If I grew a vagina could we curl up in a ball with Mineral and Elliott lp's and make babies?

This was what I've said all along. It was a fucking stream. It wasn't ripped, people gave a shit and 'peeped' at an official from the label stream.

colin (September 24, 2008)

haha sure thing.

i guess it seems pretty stupid to me that now almost 10 years after the napster/metallica stuff, we're still on this issue.

labels: albums you put out will leak if you are at all recognizable. artists: albums you record will leak.

but in the end they might make money. me, i found dillinger four through illegally downloading their albums and now have purchased 3 records of theirs. i don't like civil war so i won't this time around but i'll still listen to them in the future. but as someone who tries both to support independent music as well as be a part of the digital era we are in, it's stuff like this that makes me realize how many people cannot fully appreciate the magnitude of the internet and/or can't figure out a fucking way to just sit back and relax.

make (or in scoot's case, "review") your music and sh

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14theroad (September 24, 2008)

I remember an article where sideone told Gaslight their album would leak and not to give a shit. Telling them at least you'll know people want to listen to it. With that said, why Fat is getting so pissy about this mystifies me. Why would one indie care, and another not?

MedioCore (September 24, 2008)

I think the difference here is that this was a rare example of the label knowing exactly *who* leaked the record. I bet if other labels could pinpoint the exact person who leaked shit, they'd go after them more.

McFlynnTHM (john) (September 25, 2008)

Brian told that story when I saw them in Boston recently. He had started to say "It's funny..." and someone yelled "that we know all the lyrics and the album's not out yet?," then he launched into what Sideone told him. Pretty cool, imo.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

For once you and I agree. Kudos.

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

I get what you're saying and I don't want to argue you point for point as I doubt anything either of us say would impact the other. All I'm saying is, don't be surprised when 360 deals become much more common in independent music. If labels can't recoup on albums they'll do it some way.
-Dante

mac- (September 25, 2008)

if the 360 deal becomes prevalent in the larger independent label circus, that just means that the whole mess is that much closer to collapsing in on itself. it's yet another admission on the part of a whole lot of people that they REALLY JUST DON'T GET IT. music piracy isn't going anywhere, and it's silly to pretend otherwise. it's also silly to pretend like its the reason larger indies are suffering as a result of some kid downloading a record three weeks prior to release, when really it has more to do with a faulty business model and a massive glut of bad music.

i'm not saying that i don't sympathize with the bands who deal with issues like this one, but it's less out of concern for their financial well-being and more out of how disheartening it must seem to have your music boiled down to the lowest common denominator. but it also seems to me that bands do

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Dante3000 (rich) (September 25, 2008)

That's such a generic "if the product and business model were better this wouldn't happen" answer that it's horseshit. No offense but you're talking about labels who have survived on minimal budget and expenses for a long time. To say, "when really it has more to do with a faulty business model and a massive glut of bad music" has little to do with many of the labels that would be considering this.

Labels such as Epitaph, who have put out what many would consider awful music, have thrived as of late because of it. Appealing to the lowest common denominator is the only way to sell records. And yes, labels get downloading isn't going away, that's why 360 deals will begin to occur. It has impacted sales across the board, that's a fact. Now they're just going to find new ways to finance music.
-Dante

mac- (September 25, 2008)

my use of the word "bad" was too subjective.

but anyway, i'm sure you remember the flap with drive-thru and vagrant a few years back. these labels HAD to put their bands out on package tours with a fleet of buses, six-figure promotional budgets, and big name producers for their bands because otherwise punk bands were going to sign to major labels and THE WHOLE THING WOULD COLLAPSE IN ON ITSELF. the only thing it did was reduce the margins and make it incredibly hard to turn a profit. it also made a whole lot of people think that their label was responsible for lavishing money on them, but that's a whole other story entirely.

and now, in an age where indies spend ridiculous amounts of money on promoting the music they release (to the extent that a band can be dropped by an independent label for selling less than 50,000 copies of a record), they say

show rest of commentmy use of the word "bad" was too subjective.

but anyway, i'm sure you remember the flap with drive-thru and vagrant a few years back. these labels HAD to put their bands out on package tours with a fleet of buses, six-figure promotional budgets, and big name producers for their bands because otherwise punk bands were going to sign to major labels and THE WHOLE THING WOULD COLLAPSE IN ON ITSELF. the only thing it did was reduce the margins and make it incredibly hard to turn a profit. it also made a whole lot of people think that their label was responsible for lavishing money on them, but that's a whole other story entirely.

and now, in an age where indies spend ridiculous amounts of money on promoting the music they release (to the extent that a band can be dropped by an independent label for selling less than 50,000 copies of a record), they say that the error wasn't really with them spending way too much money to release way too many records, but with the kids who downloaded a record two weeks before it came out, and that they need to assert more financial control to continue operating. it's ironic, considering that the technology exists for anyone to release and distribute records as effectively as any indie record label.

really, these labels should be using the file sharing networks as promotional tools. if first week sales of "tha carter iii" are any indication, it would appear that even major labels are starting to wake up to how this can be done. i understand that dillinger four isn't lil wayne, but at the same time, leaks and music piracy just aren't going to go away. if the response of the record label is to blame these things for all of its ills, then they really just don't get it.

openedground (September 25, 2008)

I think labels will always have a place because while bands realize that they can release their records and do their own promotion on the net for virtually free, a lot them won't want to for a variety of reasons, whether from laziness or indifference.

tylerdurden8136 (September 25, 2008)

As much as I hate you sometimes, you're still damn close to being the smartest person I know.

I'm not sure if you're just that smart or I don't know enough people but either or, I totally agree.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

This man speaks the truth.

kraze (September 25, 2008)

You've never been involved in making a major record.
I'm sorry, that's such a cliché, but until you put your heart and soul for months/years into something and it just sips out before its supposed to without ay chance of your preferred way of having it availibe kicks in, it really stings.

Just wait until you compile what you do into an awesome book and really dissect and put hours into every single detail and then before the books goes to pressing, someone puts up all the art in semi-high-res photos online. The context gets pulled out and that hurts. You will also get disheartened by the fact that millions saw them on sites/youtube and only a few hundred bought them, not even selling out your initial pressing. If you're not a mega-corporation, you're going to get upset.

And yeah, a few years ago, major exposure used to lead into something such as ge

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colin (September 25, 2008)

really?

because i put all my books on line for free in high resolution because i don't think art should be about the money. i only sell them at the cost it takes to print one copy.

so i do think this whole thing is horseshit. i am glad when ANYONE looks at what i do, takes time out of their lives even to just glance, much less pay for something. it's an honor and an incredibly humbling feeling to know that someone else out there likes these crappy drawings i assemble into books.

i could give a fuck about the money. i'll get money through other means, but the things i put my heart and soul into i want no connection to finances.

Dante3000 (rich) (September 25, 2008)

No offense but I don't think that's a fair comparison. That's awesome if you think the art shouldn't be about the money. It's a very noble way to feel and it's impressive you've managed to actually live it with your art.

However, I'd imagine your art is something that you do in your spare time and that has fairly minimal overhead costs. I'm not saying it doesn't take money to buy supplies or have a book bound but compared to being in a band it's next to nothing. It costs thousands upon thousands of dollars for a band to buy decent equipment, record, mix and master an album and this is all before a single record is produced. Not to mention I that I doubt you get a ton of people complaining if you don't do a book tour, so that's transportation and all the fun stuff that goes with touring (and despite what folks think, unless you're a big big band, the

show rest of commentNo offense but I don't think that's a fair comparison. That's awesome if you think the art shouldn't be about the money. It's a very noble way to feel and it's impressive you've managed to actually live it with your art.

However, I'd imagine your art is something that you do in your spare time and that has fairly minimal overhead costs. I'm not saying it doesn't take money to buy supplies or have a book bound but compared to being in a band it's next to nothing. It costs thousands upon thousands of dollars for a band to buy decent equipment, record, mix and master an album and this is all before a single record is produced. Not to mention I that I doubt you get a ton of people complaining if you don't do a book tour, so that's transportation and all the fun stuff that goes with touring (and despite what folks think, unless you're a big big band, the money isn't made in touring I know bands on Fat [seems relevant] who actually have sold their own possessions to pay to tour).
Add to it that a lot of these roles are peoples full time jobs and I don't mean the musicians. Regardless of your feelings about art and money it takes a full time position to record albums, it takes full time positions to press albums and it often takes full time positions to distribute albums. All those people have done their jobs and I don't think it's fair to let them fall under the "art shouldn't make money" category.

If you want to say bands and labels shouldn't be giant money making corporations, that's fine. However, it's not going to impact the overall fact that making a good quality recording is an expensive process and ultimately one that is a full time job (often for people who aren't the band). It's fine if you want art to be free but just take that from the people who have done it in a manner that it's meant to be so (Defiance, Ohio, BTMI!, Desa) and not the people who have paid thousands of dollars to make a good record.
-Dante

Dumbloserme (September 25, 2008)

Ugh....

You buy into that entitlement thing too much. If your overhead is too much, cut back. It's pretty simple economics actually. If you can't sustain a life with music, don't do it. Such is a free market system. There is NO entitlement involved.

This also is about Dillinger Four. It's not like their records sound all that great in a production aspect. Not at all. I know people who get much better sound out of recording in their own living room. Follow this link if you don't believe me.

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprof ile&
friendID=25432356

Nobody is entitled to anything. I've put thousands of dollars in to a record my band did and didn't recoup anything. We split up soon after the fact.. but it was worth

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Dumbloserme (September 25, 2008)

http://www.myspace.com/seesband

this link should actually work

Dante3000 (rich) (September 25, 2008)

I'm not sure how expecting people to get paid for their work is entitlement. In fact I would say people who want music to be free buy into entitlement a little too much.
Anyhow, I'm not saying people who play music should receive millions of dollars or even make a living at it. What I was saying is that making an album is not comparable to doing art and putting it online in a high resolution format. Especially, when your a band of any note who has to put a considerable amount of time into touring. It's a money losing venture for most bands but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep their loses to a minimum.
As for the quality of the Dillinger 4 album I fail to see how that is relevant. I don't care if it sounds like it was recorded on a tape recorder, over the phone, in a trash can. The band accepted thousands of dollars from a record l

show rest of commentI'm not sure how expecting people to get paid for their work is entitlement. In fact I would say people who want music to be free buy into entitlement a little too much.
Anyhow, I'm not saying people who play music should receive millions of dollars or even make a living at it. What I was saying is that making an album is not comparable to doing art and putting it online in a high resolution format. Especially, when your a band of any note who has to put a considerable amount of time into touring. It's a money losing venture for most bands but that doesn't mean they shouldn't try to keep their loses to a minimum.
As for the quality of the Dillinger 4 album I fail to see how that is relevant. I don't care if it sounds like it was recorded on a tape recorder, over the phone, in a trash can. The band accepted thousands of dollars from a record label and had it professionally recorded mastered and mixed. If a band doesn't want to go that route, they can easily go the home recording route, but as the band accepted the money and went for the pro recording route(and thus thought it was necessary for their recording). At that point there are more people involved than the band.

All I'm saying is that if a band wants to put their music up for free, that's great and I support that. If a band accepts support from a label, records and masters their album at a professional studio and has it pressed and distributed then I feel it's wrong to illegally take that product. I feel it's going to result in a cheapening of music (both figuratively and literally ), where if bands and labels can't break even on records, there's no reason to do them, so either the labels will need to make the income up in other ways (360 deals) or the bands will have to do lower end recordings and distribute them however they can.
As for labels needing to reevaluate their business and stop whining about consumers, that's exactly what I'm taking about with 360 deals. They are reevaluating and it's becoming clear that quality music isn't going to make money, but that kids still want it. So they'll cut into touring, merchandising and the rest.
However, the "Don't whine to the consumer. You need to reevaluate yourself. " is a joke, when the labels who have suffered have included small indies run out of houses with minimal advertising and no staff. I'm not sure what exactly they would cut back other than closing up shop.
-Dante
P.S. I checked out the myspace, not bad recording quality. Not my thing musically, but I get where you're going with the quality. Maybe I'm prejudice because I know what you were aiming for, but it still sounds like a home recording. A really good one but a home recording none the less. But again, that might just be mental.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

all parties involved are giant vaginas. case closed.

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14theroad (September 24, 2008)

What day is our wedding? I NEED TO ORDER THE INVITATIONS!!!

lol@getting married though.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

Early June? What do you think?
[who do you have me confused for?]

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

June's a bad time. Everything's so booked up. Besides, do you know how hard it is to keep a champagne pissing R.Kelly ice sculpture in that kind of heat? Coz I sure as hell don't. And you look nice today.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

I refuse to get married in the winter, but I'll consider any other season. April or August maybe?

also, thanks bb. you looked totally stellar yourself. we should maybe model

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

April sounds ok. It depends on where though. No one likes to see a grown man nipping through his tux. Not even that wino mother of yours.

And I tried my hand in modeling once. The only problem was I couldn't turn left.
And now you know everything....

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

take that back, my mother is a dream. also you can pick the location as long as I can have a big wedding

Cox_Attack (September 24, 2008)

I agree. What a fucking big cry fest. Seriously. Everyone in this fecal storm looks like a raving idiot except maybe Mitch. Even that is debateable though.

So I never listened to I Hate Myself, found 4 songs in a record store, picked it up, and it rules!

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

what kind of music is it?

Cox_Attack (September 25, 2008)

Like early 90s melodic hardcore. It's pretty awesome!

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Tramp.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

do you need a tissue to wipe your vagina tears with

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

You need to stand up and shake the sand out of your vag, maybe queef out the cobwebs.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

do you ever get tired of the perpetual circle jerk type thing you guys have going

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

do you ever get tired of the perpetual circle jerk type thing you guys have going

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

I enjoy the drunken sausage fest, tyvm.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

i just want you to know that i'm not posting the same comment seven times and i appreciate punknews making me look like a turd.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

It's like the same wording and everything.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

It did it on purpose. It was trying to defend it's most frequent commenter.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

do you ever get tired of the perpetual circle jerk type thing you guys have going

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

Don't talk about my woman like that!
I've still got 15 mins, wait your turn.

nina_d (September 24, 2008)

hey now. this wedding is forever

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

What about our child?

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

The Taiwanese black market pays pretty good I hear.

IDontHaveAnAccountYet (September 24, 2008)

I think we need a government funded bail out for the punx!

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deadelectromix (September 24, 2008)

Win?
Undecided...

RacketMagazine (September 24, 2008)

Absolutely.

IDontHaveAnAccountYet (September 25, 2008)

Do I get a job?

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

If a job is one of those things that pays you, then no.

RRR (September 24, 2008)

Dave's not stoked

wonton (September 24, 2008)

so, whats going to happen to DudleyShale for causing all of this drama?

3+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

I'm going to buy him a beer if I ever see him. That's what.

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

Only 4 more years until you are old enough to buy!

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

LOL samezies here.

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

Hey man, in Mexico I can drink as long as I can see over the counter. So, ha!

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Whats gonna happen to me? I'm gonna keep writing, and listen to music.

Like someone else stated here, I live in rural area. If it weren't for the internet, fuck, I might be bumping Kid Rocks album, or worse.

And haha, buy me a beer? Thats nice of you!

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Fuck dude, I'm buying you whiskey.

TylerK (September 25, 2008)

The guy really stuck his neck out on this one, and it's a goddamn shame someone had to abuse this generocity and rip the stream.Dudley_Shale, if you're ever in the Pittsburgh area, well I'll buy you a beer AND whiskey!

blue_drink (September 24, 2008)

How about the leak was choppy between songs and not worth listening to the way it is because it was ripped from an on-line stream?

Buy the album for a cleaner, better quality sound. Duh Four!

:D

Thus_Spoke_Sean (September 24, 2008)

I just downloaded the new Jenny Lewis and Underoath (yeah yeah Dinosaurs, whatever, they are the best band currently playing Botch influenced music. Define The Great Line was an AWESOME record and so far this new is very solid, Jenny Lewis on the other, is a little wierd so far, it'll need repeated listens) and I will buy both of them.

In fact I would have already, but Generation Records didn't have either on vinyl, so I will probably mail order them next week when I get paid.

However, if I download something, and then I don't like it.....I don't run out and buy it to make up for the download, I just delete it.

8+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

Hey man,

dinosaurs. dinosaurs....

Banal242 (September 24, 2008)

My guess is you are in the minority. Most illegal downloaders don't pay for their music later.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

I feel like I never hear from you anymore.

Thus_Spoke_Sean (September 25, 2008)

yeah ive been hear reading as much as i can. ive just been busy, and thus, not posting a lot.

Archangel (September 25, 2008)

How DARE you link Underoath with Botch?

Thus_Spoke_Sean (September 25, 2008)

dude. seriously? I said they are influenced by them. and.....they are.

listen to their last two albums, they aren't making typical "screamo" stuff like what they are lumped into.

the_other_scott (September 25, 2008)

did you really expect generation to have underoath on vinyl?

Thus_Spoke_Sean (September 25, 2008)

no.....

but i was hoping they would have jenny lewis

TheSandwiches (September 24, 2008)

Speaking of legality The Sandwiches has posted a remix of a cobra starship song.
stream that shit bitches!

http://www.myspace.com/thesandwichespunx

2+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

I closed it :(

TheSandwiches (September 24, 2008)

No Timberwolves! for you

Blackjaw_x (September 24, 2008)

Why don't you post a poll on the main site, with these options:

1. I was going to buy the album, but got the leak so I'll save my money.
2. I got the leak, but will still buy the album.
3. I refused to download the link, as I will definitely buy this on release.
4. Even if it hadn't leaked, it still would have been uploaded after the release and I would have gotten it then.

We can see how much this whole thing really hurt the sales.

1+ Reply

REALPUNX4LIFE (September 25, 2008)

Not really. Most people here are really self-righteous about this. I'd put good money on people checking 2 or 3 just to make the record industry seem like tools for making a big deal out of leaks, but in actuality they're not going to buy the record. I even think that a lot of people who downloaded it ARE planning on buying, but won't wind up doing so in the end. I've used that justification before and I know where it's gotten me: A shit load of illegally downloaded music that I try to justify to myself. It's not pretty.

JayTee (September 24, 2008)

Well since everyone reads this website, let me just say that I stole their last albums from someone else, and I rarely even listen to D4 at all because I think the song titles are clever but the music is mediocre and you can't hear a goddamn thing any of em are saying anyway. They are however, very fun to see live.

Eat that org.

2+ Replies

Dakotacore (September 24, 2008)

My god, that is exactly how I feel. I love the song titles, can't understand a fucking thing they are saying, and I thought they were pretty good live.

AnarchyPants (September 25, 2008)

You speak the truth.

HOISTDATRAG (September 24, 2008)

guys (and 2 ladies), could we just take a moment to up the punx?

4+ Replies

IDontHaveAnAccountYet (September 24, 2008)

I thought that was the problem. They don't like it when you up them anymore, especially to the internet.

HOISTDATRAG (September 24, 2008)

Come smash the e-state with me

IDontHaveAnAccountYet (September 24, 2008)

Can punx lol?

colin (September 24, 2008)

dude, didn't you read the story? a guy got fired for doing just that.

HOISTDATRAG (September 24, 2008)

real punx don't have jobs!

colin (September 24, 2008)

real punx figure out what jobs can be used for good.

allison_le_gnome (September 24, 2008)

Even putting aside the original issue at hand, Dave just comes across as a dick. He's arguing about the ethics of downloading music with someone who made a cartoon mentioning that it exists.

GIVEMEnewWAVE (September 24, 2008)

I'm so glad i stopped watching Strange Wilderness to read through this fiasco. That movie was sucking.

2+ Replies

Wentz_Equals_Death (September 24, 2008)

the end is hilarious

TrueBeliever (September 25, 2008)

***SPOILER ALERT***

The scene where they completely lose it at the sight of bigfoot and all participate in killing him was hilarious.

Medley (September 24, 2008)

I'm interested in this new D4 album but I just can't bring myself to read Nothing Nice to Say. Last I checked that comic is terrible.

3+ Replies

14theroad (September 24, 2008)

The only one I ever really liked was the forsted blakes one.

daveyd4 (September 25, 2008)

It's certainly no Super Dodgeball Comics.

Ravnos (September 29, 2008)

I don't think you're allowed to shit on someone else's comic when you make some shitty sprite comic. Seriously.

matt_b (September 24, 2008)

ha. the battle between Mitch and "dave" was priceless. Meanwhile. what the fuck is the point of people saying "what is punk rock these days? In (insert year)." I get it, i get it. "Punk rock" is dead. All the ideas behind it are dead, because it was only because of punk rock that the ideas of community and "fucking the man" and "doing it yourself" were around. Too bad punks dead, as do those ideas die, too...

2+ Replies

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Punk isn't dead as long as I am alive.

skankin_in_the_pit (September 24, 2008)

This is a warning. No, this is a threat
As long as we're alive then punk's not dead yet
Consider this a challenge, there's problems unresolved
Forget about your fashion show and start to get involved

LooseKanonYankee (September 24, 2008)

I think Bridge 9 has the best setup of any label currently out there

I ordered selective wreckage on vinyl
I got to download the mp3's right after I bought it
The record came with a CD of all the tracks
and it arrived today (almost a week before its in stores)

Plus they have a stream with multiple songs
for almost every current band

I wish all labels were like Bridge 9

1+ Reply

swank (September 25, 2008)

Yeah, but they kind of fuck people with their Vinyl "packages".

The only way you'll be able to get the red/green splatter vinyl with sparkles (/100) is to order the ultimate deluxe package, which includes grey t-shirt, pin, poster, 10x15' banner, baby booties, fondue fork and 12 salt packets. Limited!!!1 $45.

SloaneDaley (September 24, 2008)

I could be wrong I'm pretty sure the actual leak, happened through someone else not connected to Aaron at all as in the link the at being passed around as rip, the one Scott blew the whistle on.

2+ Replies

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

You are correct. It's stupid to think Aaron was the only person with access to the album... he isn't that important.

SloaneDaley (September 24, 2008)

yeah what aaron did was maybe jerky but it wasn't evil "destroy fat" he shared it with a handful of peopel to listen to not even download and bump in their whip. he maybe deserves to be punished but not labeled a "leaker" it just seems vicious.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, it was jerky, but I mean...at the time I wasn't meaning for it to be that way.

It's still my fault though.

SloaneDaley (September 24, 2008)

your heart was in teh right place and if you ever make it up to my neck of the woods I owe you 11 beers.

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

The "magazine" should have fired that dude a long time ago for being such a horrible writer.

9+ Replies

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Wrong!

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Fail.

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

Nono, succeed.

Did you read that blog entry? Jesus Christ.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

What's wrong with it?

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

It's rambling, directionless, and hilariously overwrought with a hint of pathetic desperation. That's what.

"You, Scott Heisel. You." Hahaha!

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

I'm not one to play semantics, but um...

The last one was actually a poem. Feel free to slag that, too!

The leak blog is about two, nearly three weeks old.

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

Where do semantics come into play here? I never referenced the time it was posted. I don't quite follow you.

Kenjamin (September 25, 2008)

he's made great strides as a writer in two weeks. Don't judge him for something he wrote such a long time ago.

Jay3313 (September 25, 2008)

Pretty much.

I'm fairly scatterbrained, but reading that garbage gave me motion sickness.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Music@racketmag.com

God ahead and do better! I know theres a spot open.

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

Hey! You got the correct spelling of "there" this time! Congrats, you're well on your way to being grammatically correct.

mikexdude (September 24, 2008)

Hey! You're an asshole.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Says the person with two extra s' on his handle.

chrisss (September 24, 2008)

What? Where? I don't know what you're talking about!

loreng (September 25, 2008)

I was wondering about that in his blog too.

swank (September 25, 2008)

haha, my thoughts exactly.

daveyd4 (September 24, 2008)

[Go] ahead and do better! I know there['s] a spot open.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

failcake

Kenjamin (September 25, 2008)

I'm in agreement with you on this one. The kid's explanation/confession was unreadable but it's not like Racket has high standards.

christian (September 25, 2008)

Agree.

lostandclowned (September 24, 2008)

"Contraband" had more guitar solos. i laughed.

HumanUnkind (September 24, 2008)

I just bought a pre-order off Play (I'm from the UK so interpunk was out of the question). I did download this but not out of any desire to hurt the artist. I love this band and was just uber stoked. And having bought their last three full lengths (i've yet to own the live album or this shit... but I will eventually) I didn't feel bad downloading it since I knew I was going to buy the album anyway.

All that's left is the necessary uk tour! PLEASE

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

I heard Scott Heisel is a Holocaust denier.

3+ Replies

IDontHaveAnAccountYet (September 24, 2008)

The next album leak is gonna be blamed on you now. Prepare to get fired.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Trick's on Scooter - I'm a kept man. All I have to do is cook and be good in the sack.

MedioCore (September 24, 2008)

1 outta 2 ain't bad.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Yeah, I'm only so-so in the kitchen.

MedioCore (September 24, 2008)

You'll get the hang of it.

Lorraine (September 25, 2008)

so weird that you say this. I taught about the Holocaust and Holocaust deniers today.

of course, on this thread, THIS is what I comment about.

Nameless (September 24, 2008)

I knew when someone on another message board told me about the first round of drama that this would be insane. I'm glad I got rid of the leak.

I hate downloading albums because I feel all sorts of guilt, especially to the artist. At the same time, it's gotten me into so many bands that I love right now that I can't say I haven't benefited from it. It's a catch-22.

Hasheesh (September 24, 2008)

Personally, I wouldn't download something that I had no intention of buying anyway.

1+ Reply

hooges (September 24, 2008)

I'm the same way. I don't mind leaks, I download them and listen to them. But I am a collector type, I'll purchase the actual vinyl or at the very least the CD. I like physical copies, even if thats the minority these days.

JoeyNukes (September 24, 2008)

I've never liked Scott Hiesel. He seems like such a smug hipster asshole.
I don't sympathize with Aaron, but I enjoyed his blog and his sincerity.
Mitch Clem rules.

Fuck Hiesel

1+ Reply

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Thanks, seriously.

I don't need sympathy. I fucked up, I'm an adult, I'm trying to take responsibility for it, thats all.

dX927 (September 24, 2008)

All of this crap over a horribly overrated band.

3+ Replies

Blackjaw_x (September 24, 2008)

Agreed, but that's just our opinions. If people like them, they like them.

Rudy87 (September 24, 2008)

honestly, I thought these guys sucked up until I heard this record. Im 100% into them, now

dX927 (September 24, 2008)

until they sign to a major label. then they never liked them or just the old stuff. I'm not talking about D4, I'm speaking in general.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Apparently I haven't made myself clear enough.

I take fault for this.

Me.

Thank you, that is all.

8+ Replies

Blackjaw_x (September 24, 2008)

You are forgiven, my son!

RacketMagazine (September 24, 2008)

Dude. How the hell did this spread like wildfire? Umm. Also, I already bought you a beer.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

Haha, because "New Wave" is almost two years old now, Tom has been on good behavior not smashing kids heads through tables, and Gaslight Anthem is still beloved.

Theres nothing left to get people good and angry about.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Oh,, right.

MattRamone (September 24, 2008)

Semmed pretty fucking clear to me. But then again, I read it.

Dante3000 (rich) (September 24, 2008)

Dave: I suppose you think that makes it, OK? 'I'm sorry I caused all that cancer. . .' you don't even sound like you mean it, Bruce.

Bruce: Dave, you asked me to apologize and that's just what I did.

Dave: I'm sorry. Well, in rehearsal you sounded like you meant it, it sounded like you were actually remorseful about what you had done, but this was pretty, pretty lame, Bruce. I think you should apologize like you really mean it.

Bruce:Fine, David. I'm sorry I caused all that throat cancer and all that bowel cancer. I was just on a roll . . .
-Dante

Spooky (September 24, 2008)

Kids In The Hall is probably my favorite show of all time. "The Terrier Song" is one of the best skits I've ever seen.

Dudley_Shale (September 24, 2008)

I do mean it though.

It's just frustrating for me, completely when since day one, I've been saying, "Guys, don't blame anyone else but me. Not Racket, not Fat, not Scott Heisel. I made a poor decision"...and yet people are still getting the impression, like Jesse, who get the impression that I don't care about what happened and that I don't in fact, take responsibility.

And I don't fault people, either. This shouldn't be that important, because there are real issues happening, but on a personal level it's still annoying to know you're trying you're hardest to just nip it in the bud, not have innocent parties take the heat, and then still come off like more of a jackass than I already am. Thats all.

LORD-OF-THE-GAYS (September 25, 2008)

Your 15 minutes are almost up, keep hanging in there!

OzmanX (September 24, 2008)

Douche Chill!

RacketMagazine (September 24, 2008)

You know what, at the end of all this, what I get from the Mitch Clem comics is: Racket has the power to tase you. Beware!

1+ Reply

Thrilhouse (September 25, 2008)

No, only fat wreck.

binaural111 (September 24, 2008)

If not for downloads I wouldn't be listening to 90% of what I'm listening to today. I wouldn't be buying the albums I have today. We dont get albums shipped in most of the time (only major labels/indies with major label distribution whose CDs cost like $35) so the selection compared to the US/UK pales like fuck. My first point of contact with any new music is usually the album leak.

1+ Reply

binaural111 (September 24, 2008)

and then of course if i like it i'll buy the albums so i dont feel bad about downloading them. it's like trying on a pair of pants before buying them, except not 100% comparable. but you know what i mean

AK3punk (September 25, 2008)

In the past year I have succumbed to downloading music. Regardless, 90% of what I download and enjoy I buy unless it's a) vinyl tracks b) rare tracks/ out of print albums. If it sucks I delete it and don't buy the album. It's not much different than me standing at the listening booth in HMV.

I downloaded the new D4 and I am still going to buy it when it comes to stores.

I buy cd's at shows for my collection from bands(they get more money that way anyway), I buy tshirts from bands when I dont need them(they need gas money, and I want them to come back to my shitty town), and I usually tip the merch guy when he isn't a fucking asshole(they have a very important yet thankless job).

That being said I'm sure there are consumers in the punk rock community that have values, and understand the importance of supporting the bands that they en

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LIQUIDSWORDS (September 25, 2008)

I actually pre-orderd the album, just because I fucking love D4.
and so does my cat Butters, he digs D4.
but not the gay band D4
Dillinger 4
yes.

1+ Reply

spoon_of_grimbo (September 25, 2008)

haha "the gay band D4"!!!! i wondered how many people who use that abbreviation for Dillinger Four have actually heard of that terrible australian garage rock band of the same name....

kneel (September 25, 2008)

you guys are all missing the fucking point here....

we're in the middle of two wars, our country's finest financial services companies and investment banks are all crumbling like shitty vending machine cookies and we just might even be running into a recession. and our do-nothing, liberal establishment congress won't even fork over the 700 bn (or more) needed to get this mess that clinton created cleaned up.

in this day and age, you have to know how to save money. you never know when its going to run out.

dudley_shale (unlike the rest of you) recognized that. he's a good guy that was just trying to save us all some money so we can buy another ration of victory gin. he's a stand-up man that believes in the party's goals, and this was a stand-up attempt to serve his fellow neo-americans.

what i am trying to say is:
<

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6+ Replies

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

Coke.

If I wanted to drink cough syrup I'd do that and at leats get a little high.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

No no, Pibb Xtra.

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

Also, they should call Pepsi the Diabetic Drink of Choice.

I guess it's all pointless since soda is some of the worst shit you can put in your body and I'm too lazy to work out much.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

I love the taste of diabetes in the morning.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Tastes like victory?

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

No, more like sadness.

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Ah. That's a downer.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Yea, but Pibb Xtra is an upper, so I'm balanced.

kneel (September 25, 2008)

the one true soda is cheerwine.

additionally a good root beer is amazing.

kneel (September 25, 2008)

dude if coke doesnt get you high, you're doing it wrong.

you might start by snorting it instead of drinking it.

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

Habeeb me, I know. That was a rare instance of me realizing I needed to stop doing something fo rmy own good.

canaandrumzz (September 25, 2008)

But the milf can see russia from her house. And china isn't socialist, its just an open market with an oppressive government. And does no one else see the hypocrisy behind men who position themselves as advocates of pork-free small government then rush in to save businesses who tried to do to much and then failed (as expected). It's some real cognitive dissonance to be able to reconcile the two.

That said, I'll take whatever comes out of fountain. Or the one that I can simply pour over ice.

baseball (September 25, 2008)

The part that should piss everyone off about this whole thing is the "we never saw this coming" attitude that's being pushed on this. How stupid do they think we are? People saw this coming. I work for a prospering company in the financial industry, and trust me, people saw this coming a long time ago. Hell, I read an article the other day re-published from 2002 that saw this coming.

So now all these fucking Bush administrations assholes, who while not the sole cause are absolutely as much to blame as the previous administrations, are in the media throwing everyone into a panic and pushing this request for $700B no questions asked. Yes, the government is going to need to bail the financial industry out. But has anyone even read this bill? They're asking for a blank check with absolutely NO OVERSIGHT whatsoever. UNPRECEDENTED power would go to Paulson, no

show rest of commentThe part that should piss everyone off about this whole thing is the "we never saw this coming" attitude that's being pushed on this. How stupid do they think we are? People saw this coming. I work for a prospering company in the financial industry, and trust me, people saw this coming a long time ago. Hell, I read an article the other day re-published from 2002 that saw this coming.

So now all these fucking Bush administrations assholes, who while not the sole cause are absolutely as much to blame as the previous administrations, are in the media throwing everyone into a panic and pushing this request for $700B no questions asked. Yes, the government is going to need to bail the financial industry out. But has anyone even read this bill? They're asking for a blank check with absolutely NO OVERSIGHT whatsoever. UNPRECEDENTED power would go to Paulson, no official has ever seen the kind of power he's requesting. Those are the kind of moves that got us into this mess. I'm sorry but I'm not cool with bailing out these companies free of cost, you fuck up, you get penalized. You don't just get to walk away with your $50M golden parachute and retire in St. Marten. The taxpayers are getting penalized, this is costing every single one of us ~$2300, you damn well better be penalized too. You don't get your hand out from the government and a $50M pat on the ass with us saying "you'll get 'em next time!" This is crony capitalism at its finest.

Fact of the matter is the next 2 or 3 years are likely written already. The next 3-10 are the important ones. We don't need the former head of Goldman Sachs pulling Patriot Act style pressure over Congress. Shit ain't changing in the next month, this needs oversight, and it needs it bad. Otherwise we're going to be fucked again in 10 years.

Phew, feels good to get that off my chest even though no one is going to read it in this epic thread.

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

I read it and you're fucking right. They pulled the Patriot Act and the Iraq war past us with the "hurry up and sign the legislation - no time for debate, this is urgent!" line before. I think someone should go through that motherfucker line by line and see what the fuck is in there.

I do think it's funny that the same conservatives who call Obama (who, let's face it, is pretty solidly Democratic) as socialist are now the ones clamoring for government intervention to save private companies.

The fact that the heads of these companies are going to walk away with more money that I will ever see in my life despite be largely responsible for one of the greatest economic collapses in our history is mind boggling. If you or I fucked up even 10% as bad at our jobs as they did at theirs, not only would we have been fired, we probably wouldn't be able to ge

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JFK421 (September 25, 2008)

"A CRAZY OLD COOT WANTS TO TAKE OVER OUR COUNTRY WITH HIS HOT MILF RETARD FRIEND."

im not sure why but i laughed so fucking hard at this in a place i shouldnt have.

donny (September 25, 2008)

the comic was hilarious :D 'yea, i guess punk rock is serious business to fat mike. unless you're trying to interview him. then he's punk as duck.' hahaha. as for d4, i haven't heard the whole album, but that one track on fat website didn't make an impression on me.

ashtraymonument (September 25, 2008)

I downloaded the album and have listened to it almost non-stop since

I'm gonna buy the album. maybe twice. its that good.

suck my balls.

PS. I got the leak of '59 sound and listened to that non stop. and you know waht i did? I sat in bed and nearly destroyed my computer trying to grab a copy off of vinyl collective. I'm fully prepared to do the same for this album.

Tudor (September 25, 2008)

I think this whole thing is probably one the the stupidest things Ive ever read on this website.

Yet I was compelled to read Scott Heisels blog spot. In the one paragraph where he states that "His writing wasn't up to AP standards" made me fucking laugh. What standards?

What a giant fat-ass pompus douche bag.

2+ Replies

PoliticsOfStarving (September 25, 2008)

Yeah. When he was saying 'oh that's the guy who's been emailing me for the last 3 weeks trying to get a job'.

He sounds as if he's some kind of god handing down jobs from the heavens and deciding who is good enough and whatnot.

Typical Heisel bullshit.

Cos (September 25, 2008)

In fairness, it was on the AP site's blog, so I doubt he'd say anything truthful about the quality of that god-forsaken rag.

That said, it was one of those "made me throw up in my mouth" lines.

eran_zombis (September 25, 2008)

I bet D4 is laughing at everyone involved.

BigSnuff (September 25, 2008)

It's a shitty situation, yes. But let's not kid ourselves:They should have fucking expected it to happen when they put it on line to share with "friends" of theirs.

mashole (September 25, 2008)

i cant stand this double standard anymore. d4 album gets leaked everyone has a shit storm. if a metallica record or anyone not in the punk community gets leaked we laugh and say fuck them. whats the difference? cause one plays music we like and the other doesnt? records get leaked. its inevitable. if it wasnt this guy it woulda been someone else. get ur head outa ur asses and realize the people who were going to buy the record will still buy it and the ppl that are listening and burning it now were going to do that anyway. stop bitching about nothing this guy leaking would not make a difference in sales

jumptheshark (September 25, 2008)

I downloaded the leak. I love it. I have every intention of buying it, if not right when it comes out, but next time I see em live (I live in St. Paul). I have a show on my college radio. Do y'all think it be solid for me to play a few songs? I figure it would, since it's free promotion, and people can't keep it.

1+ Reply

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Well, the college radio station probably has what's called a blanket license to broadcast any tunes from ASCAP, BMI or SESAC, the main businesses in charge of collecting money for songwriters. You should be golden, but it never hurts to try to talk to someone at Fat about what dates they would prefer.

radioXwaves (September 25, 2008)

I seriously cannot wait for the entire music industry to collapse in on itself. The economy is about to do that, so I only hope the music industry fails outright as well. Because when the music industry falls, it'll take with it all of the "Music Channels", and all of the indie labels, chain stores, shitty ass magazines who only cover shitty Victory bands who just missed the top 40, as well as all of the freeloading, blood sucking, "Johnny-More-Punk-Than-You", "Where Were You When?", "Fuck You For Liking The (International) Noise Conspiracy and the Bouncing Souls", fatassed, neckbearded, convertible drivin', fest-bragging, shoulda died 3 years ago from Diabetes and McDonalds diet motherfuckers down with it. While I'm on that subject, I hope the city of Cleveland Ohio experiences some sort of terrorist attack involving a dirty bomb just in the hopes of wiping AP and all of their con

show rest of commentI seriously cannot wait for the entire music industry to collapse in on itself. The economy is about to do that, so I only hope the music industry fails outright as well. Because when the music industry falls, it'll take with it all of the "Music Channels", and all of the indie labels, chain stores, shitty ass magazines who only cover shitty Victory bands who just missed the top 40, as well as all of the freeloading, blood sucking, "Johnny-More-Punk-Than-You", "Where Were You When?", "Fuck You For Liking The (International) Noise Conspiracy and the Bouncing Souls", fatassed, neckbearded, convertible drivin', fest-bragging, shoulda died 3 years ago from Diabetes and McDonalds diet motherfuckers down with it. While I'm on that subject, I hope the city of Cleveland Ohio experiences some sort of terrorist attack involving a dirty bomb just in the hopes of wiping AP and all of their contributors off the face of the Earth.

I can't wait to see the day that all of those motherfuckers are unemployed. From the top on down. Then things can start fresh without ego or paychecks to worry about and nurse.

I don't post on this website just about ever and I read the things people post under stories even less. But maybe that's out of sheer contempt for all of you, writers, contributes, posters and other readers.

Maybe I'm a bit misanthropic sometimes. But fuck it and fuck all of you... But I seriously hope everything any of you ever love dies right in your arms. You're all a bunch of worthless twats.

OH NOES! A PUNK RECORD LEAKED!!! EVERYBODY PANIC! FIRE THIS GUY! PRAISE BE TO SCOTT HEISEL! HANG MITCH CLEM!!! ALL IS WELL! ALL IS WELL!!!

Kiss my ass. I hope you all die within the year.

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radioXwaves (September 25, 2008)

Submitters Note: With Regards to the city of Cleveland and its inhabitants. My friend Josh is allowed to survive. You know who you are, you sexy sonofabitch

radioXwaves (September 25, 2008)

One last note. The D4 record would have leaked at some point anyways. It's the state of the musical landscape these days. You just sort of expect new records to leak prior to their release date and you dont throw an overdramatic fit over it in which you blacklist people and get them fired/talk about them in your personal blogs on Alternative Presses website

Fat Wreck and D4 should be happy it leaked less than a month prior to the release date as opposed to 4 to 6 months ahead of time...

So to Punknews.org, Fat Wreck and Fat Scott... thanks for turning Punk Rock into a gossipy knitting circle, you're officially no better than my aunts, who invite their neighbors over for tea and pastries after church to talk about the people who live two streets away.

I hope you all choke on pills, booze or in some special cases, hopefully a bottle of

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nina_d (September 25, 2008)

amen

BarcodedScene (September 25, 2008)

Dear RadioXWaves:

I was going to respond to your post in great detail. Unfortunately, I'm too busy counting my money.

Cheers,
Rupert Murdoch
ALTERNATIVE PRESS

Dumbloserme (September 25, 2008)

I love you.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

I can see how some internet drama can make one wish for the imminent death of a few hundred people. Actually, on second thought, you might want to see a psychiatrist. I think you are unstable and a threat to your community.

radioXwaves (September 25, 2008)

Like I said, I have misanthropic tendencies.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

So you did. Laughing when the little shit who is running around Target eats shit in greeting cards is about the extent of my misanthropy. Wanting my family members to die in my arms is br00tal. Oh. Son of a bitch. Now this is stuck in my head: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBwVlsa7_gs

You are a misanthrope.

BarcodedScene (September 25, 2008)

Dear RadioXWaves:

I saw the phrase "Warped Tour" on the Atomic Family website. This would also mean you have hypocritical tendencies, as well. I'm not offended, though. Your little "punk collectives" are so cute. I freshen my Bloody Mary with the tears of your mothers and the blood from your fathers' broken backs. Closing the steel mills? That was one of our consortium's better ones.

Gotta run to Washington to collect my share of the bailout bonus. Remember: Up the punx; we'll just buy the patent and make more fake ones,

Rick Davis
ALTERNATIVE PRESS

radioXwaves (September 25, 2008)

Actually, my involvement with the Atomic Family has since ceased, I just post here rarely enough that I never actually got around to removing the link from my profile. Besides, the purpose of the Atomic Family was to promote local music that people might enjoy and was not ever, in fact, a left-wing front against "The Man". Nice try though... strike one, but you get a gold star for trying. Save up those gold stars and you can get a PIZZA PARTY.

My initial purpose for commenting, saying that I can't wait for the music industry to collapse like the housing market and take you all down with it, is because I do think that things like the Warped Tour (these days at least), Alternative Press Magazine and music journalists in general, are like a cancer to music. Honest music falls by the wayside while groups like 3OH!3 who "rap" about exploiting women, and dime-a-doze

show rest of commentActually, my involvement with the Atomic Family has since ceased, I just post here rarely enough that I never actually got around to removing the link from my profile. Besides, the purpose of the Atomic Family was to promote local music that people might enjoy and was not ever, in fact, a left-wing front against "The Man". Nice try though... strike one, but you get a gold star for trying. Save up those gold stars and you can get a PIZZA PARTY.

My initial purpose for commenting, saying that I can't wait for the music industry to collapse like the housing market and take you all down with it, is because I do think that things like the Warped Tour (these days at least), Alternative Press Magazine and music journalists in general, are like a cancer to music. Honest music falls by the wayside while groups like 3OH!3 who "rap" about exploiting women, and dime-a-dozen, Dark Hyper-Christian Overlords such as Underoath get all the promotion. "Fuck whatever music is good, these guys make the money!"

Allow me to sidetrack myself for a moment... don't let my last comment get confused as me saying "Fuck the rich!" either. I don't really care who's got money and who doesn't. I am not THAT punk rock. I am not an anarchist. I bathe with an astounding degree of regularity, I work hard for my money (at a record store where I convince kids to buy D4 instead of A7X, and AMP instead of AP) and I am neither a vegetarian nor vegan. Shit, I even liked Against Me!'s most recent album. There goes ALL of my "punk rock cred" and I flushed it myself, so you don't need to take shots at punk collectives, they just wanna promote local music. So again, "punk collectives are so cute"... AP steps up to the plate... and it's a swing and a miss! STEEEEEERIKE TWO!

It seems I've gotten sidetracked. I just think that all of you people who get your panties in a twist over a record leaking these days are living by an antiquated system and won't know what to do with yourselves when the bottom falls out of your industry, and trust me it's going to happen sooner or later. Music leaks. Whoop-di-shit! Even Lars Ulrich has accepted that fact. Sure he's got millions in the bank and needn't worry as much, but at least he's accepted that things have changed.

That was my initial purpose for posting. I seem to keep getting sidetracked by my pure unadulterated loathing for AP, which I'll gladly expand upon now. When I want fashion tips on what musicians I may-or-may-not-like are wearing, I'll start reading Cosmo. Fuck, I could learn more from them anyways... At least Cosmo can give me fashion tips AND teach me how to give an unforgettable blow job. When I want to find out about good music, I'll download it from Kray before going to Vinyl Collective to order it, because I certainly won't find out about any good music within the pages of AP, but instead I'll just find a bunch of dorks wearing designer clothing and face paint who sing about Jesus, degrading women and showing off their new iPhones.

Was I perhaps a touch off-base wishing death and wanton violence against countless music journalists? Maybe. I had had a few drinks last night when I wrote that. Do I care? Nah. Buzzed or not, fuck 'em. They don't make music. They just try to create a circus around it and reap the benefits of being an "insider".

I'm also willing to bet that D4, who have not yet commented on their own album leaking, are probably laughing their asses off at all of us.

Last comment. Closing the steel mills? Really? Meh. When you need a heart transplant and have to travel to Pittsburgh to have the operation performed in our nationally #1 rated medical system, just know that I'll be thinking of you. Strike three, you're out, you stupid douchenozzle.

BarcodedScene (September 25, 2008)

Dear Mr. RadioXWaves:

Richard Scaife told me to tell you hello. That, and that you think too much about fleeting things. Now go listen to WDVE on your way to Pegasus to perfect those new skills you acquired from Cosmopolitan.

Please purchase your Dillinger Four music at Brave New World. See you and the wife/partner at St. Moritz at Christmas?

Very truly yours,

Taylor Griffin
Cultural Trends Forcasting Division
ALTERNATIVE PRESS

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

...As if it were finished 6 months ahead of time. Most of the album was recorded this summer.

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

...As if it were finished 6 months ahead of time. Most of the album was recorded this summer.

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

...As if it were finished 6 months ahead of time. Most of the album was recorded this summer.

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

Damn triple post. I hate it when my internet glitches.

BarleyPat (September 25, 2008)

Maybe you should get a different internet.

PhillipIck (September 25, 2008)

Wasn't this mope mitch a depressed wreck a couple years ago? Jesus christ!Anyone remember the nervous breakdown he made public on his site?! He was as certifiably insane as he once claimed Ben Weasel and Jeff Ott to be. Hm, I wonder what his medicine cabinet looks like these days...

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

http://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9599/piracyjq1.png

Well this whole thing certainly is a mini-shitstorm. I don't post here very often, but I do lurk and read most of the threads (and frequently use the news posts as references for wikipedia articles...I even wrote the article on this album - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_(album) - I'll probably work this whole leak business into it sometime tomorrow), and since everything on the internet is apparently such serious business I guess I'll put in my 2 cents. I'm something of a writer too, so apologies in advance but this is gonna be semi-long.

I wasn't into Dillinger Four before now. I probably would be if I'd picked up "Situationist Comedy" but it's

show rest of commenthttp://img371.imageshack.us/img371/9599/piracyjq1.png

Well this whole thing certainly is a mini-shitstorm. I don't post here very often, but I do lurk and read most of the threads (and frequently use the news posts as references for wikipedia articles...I even wrote the article on this album - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_War_(album) - I'll probably work this whole leak business into it sometime tomorrow), and since everything on the internet is apparently such serious business I guess I'll put in my 2 cents. I'm something of a writer too, so apologies in advance but this is gonna be semi-long.

I wasn't into Dillinger Four before now. I probably would be if I'd picked up "Situationist Comedy" but it's one of those albums I just happened to miss. I can't buy 'em all. That said, I buy shittons of albums. I have a wall of CDs and a hard drive full of tunes I've ripped from said CDs and/or bought online. I had my fling with downloading music during the Napster heyday, but nowadays my file-sharing is restricted to a close group of friends basically trying to turn each other on to our favorite music. Saying that makes it OK would be dishonest rationalizing, but it is truth to say that it has led me to buy albums by bands I wouldn't have heard of or been interested in unless my friends had sent me some of their music. I don't use torrents and I certainly don't go in search of album leaks, but that doesn't mean that few haven't crossed my plate. But I am a music nerd/collector, so if I like them I will go right out and buy them.

As the picture in the link shows, I don't agree that file sharing is the same as piracy or theft. Calling people who download music "thieves" is simply an improper term to describe the act (see http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/9/24/ for a well-written corollary to the world of video games). However, I certainly don't think file-sharing is honest and it most certainly is illegal, so by and large I try to avoid it. When word of the "Civil War" leak started spreading here on the 'org, I decided not to ask for it and to just wait for Fat Wreck to post a track for free download (as they usually do). The positive buzz about Dillinger Four here on the 'org was enough for me to want to check them out, but I simply don't think it's a good idea to post requests for illegal album rips on a public forum like this However, I think I was in the minority in that regard, judging by the number of comments requesting the leak be sent to them and subsequently giving their opinions of the album. I think that was wrong, and I think that if a site admin was seeing those threads then they should have done what they could to stop it (I don't know if they did or not, since I stopped paying attention to the threads at that point). And of course we as Org patrons shouldn't be abusing the privilege of open comment posts to spread album leaks. 'Nuff said.

As for Mr. Hale-Williams, I think it was wrong of him to pass the album stream along to other people. While I'm sure he did it with the best of intentions and just wanted to share good music with friends, his actions did result in the album getting leaked and he bears significant responsibility for that. Of course the person who converted it to mp3 and posted it on torrents and the like is the guiltiest party, but that would not have been possible had Hale not distributed the album stream as he was not supposed to. While an album leak is certainly peanuts in the grand scheme of things, it can obviously affect important aspects of your life like your job and therefore it's probably something you should take seriously if you are a music journalist who receives advance copies of things. I got myself into a parallel situation a number of years back, where I said some things via company email that I shouldn't have said and it got me in a significant amount of trouble. I was under a huge amount of stress at the time, as it sounds like Hale has been, but that's no excuse for making a bad decision, especially when it directly affects your job. Everything else snowballed from there, and I think Jesse Raub hit most of the nails on the head in his blog.

The bottom line is that music is an industry and a business, and there are lots of people who work to put out an album like this that the label has to pay, and internet leaks do affect that. It's not a utopia and entertainment (music included) isn't some ethereal thing that by its very nature is as free to everyone as oxygen. By the same token, musicians and other people in the music industry don't have some sort of intangible right to payment for everything they do. The label certainly has to pay you any monies they have agreed to pay you by contract, but in order for both you and the label to keep this operation running you have make good albums, market them, sell them, and tour behind them. And in this day and age, you also have to do what you can to prevent leaks and piracy. It's part of the business. People will always want things for free, and will usually get them for free when they can rather than pay for them. This has been true since time immemorial; the internet just provides new means of doing it. Sure, the guys in Dillinger Four have jobs and obviously being in a band isn't their main source of income, but we have to remember that it does cost money to record songs and put out albums. That said, the artist and the label need to take responsibility for controlling the material prior to its release and do their best to prevent leaks. There has to be a healthy amount of self-regulation from the business side and I think that's what we're dealing with here. If Heisel hadn't said anything to Fat, and if Fat hadn't acted on it, and if Racket hadn't punished Hale, then they would all be basically de facto saying that this type of leaking and file-sharing (call it piracy if you must) is OK, which of course totally undermines the business that they all work in. I imagine Hale would feel the same way if he gave someone an advance draft of one of his books, and that person photocopied and handed it out to friends, one of whom put it on the internet for the whole world to read, download, and print for free.

I actually did get a bootleg of "Civil War", as it turns out, from a close friend who downloaded the leak and thought I should listen to D4. That, combined with the positive buzz here on the Org, convinced me to go out and buy the album when it's released. So in the end this whole situation led me to appreciate a great band that I didn't appreciate before. And it kept me up late writing an unnecessarily long and rambling post.

Pricey123 (September 25, 2008)

id rather wait for the actual release. i check the mp3's fat puts up or whoever and decide if i want it. i couldnt get excited over buying an album if i had already heard it off the internet.

actually_OFFENDS_me (September 25, 2008)

Another thing that actually OFFENDS me, which is hard to to these days, are the people who are pissed that musicians make money. The strange, slow, old people on punknews.org and the few annoying stragglers on this website.

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baldsteve (September 25, 2008)

Hey! You finally found a place to use it properly.

actually_OFFENDS_me (September 25, 2008)

Another thing that actually OFFENDS me, which is hard to to these days, are the people who are pissed that musicians make money. The strange, slow, old people on punknews.org and the few annoying stragglers on this website.

flood (September 25, 2008)

so i read that kid's blog...

i don't think i've ever read a larger pile of self important, misinformed shit in my life.

Dudes a total boner... i had a hard year, and to make people smile i leaked an album from a band, and then i will justify by saying that i really love alkaline trio and gaslight anthem and i tell people about them. Jesus dude get off the cross already.

As a writer for a music publication labels put their trust in you to not do stupid shit like post an unreleased album all over the internet. You deserved to get fired, you deserve to get blacklisted... you basically stole from a major supporter of your publication... before you get all uppity about Fat Wreck and talk shit on the internet about how "unpunk" they're being... you might want to shut up and get a good lawyer... because you could actually face a huge settle

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baldsteve (September 25, 2008)

Never read anything more self-important?

Did you or have you EVER read Heisel's shit?

It was a fucking Stream, the dude didn't rip it, it was a stream from Fat Wreck, was their a password? Yes. It was still a fucking stream, nothing permanent, most bands have a stream of some sort available before release. It isn't the end of the world.

Everybody needs to get over themselves. This is so fucking retarded.

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

Is their a medical term for name-dropping tourette's? Cause I think that's what he has.

Thrilhouse (September 25, 2008)

Wasn't it streamed, ripped, and torrented? Or am I wrong?

loreng (September 25, 2008)

Yeah, the whole thing reads like he's 18. Maybe he is. I don't know.

Kenjamin (September 25, 2008)

Amen.

"I'm sorry" would have been sufficient. I didn't need to know that he looooves music so much that he told some girl that he loved her while listening to Jimmy Eat World. What the fuck does that have to do with anything?!

iamthebat (September 25, 2008)

This shit is stupid.

Jimmy_the_Saint (September 25, 2008)

Punknews.org does not support or condone leaking albums.

They just support announcing leaks so that everyone can go look for it.

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IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it wasn't the 'org that announced the leak, it was someone in one of the comment threads (I don't remember which thread because I don't even think it was in a news post about D4, but I definitely remember reading it). So really it's us, the commenters (or a few specific ones anyway) who announced it and not only told people to look for it but said "give me your email address and I'll send it to you". And of course people did. Punkews wasn't responsible, the readers were. I do think that if a site admin had noticed those threads then they should have attempted to put a stop to it, but my point is it wasn't them that announced the leak, it was us.

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

Of course by "us" I don't mean you or me specifically, I mean "us" the collective community of readers and commenters on the site.

LinoleumMagazine (September 25, 2008)

Why is everyone pissed at Fat wreck? Did they help get Dudley fired?

I wonder if everyone at the Fat office is reading this stuff.

I'd like to know how Fat Mike feels about this whole situation.

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LORD-OF-THE-GAYS (September 25, 2008)

He's too busy snorting coke with his $100 bills. I heard that Star Fucking Hipsters record bought him a new house.

RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

No, that was all my decision, though their stance of being unable to work with him anymore solidified it.

iamthebat (September 25, 2008)

Btw, Scott kicking this dude while he is down is classless, regardless of 'ethics' or whatever the guy said about Scott.

If you wanna play the "I'm better than you" card, learn to act like a fucking adult. This isn't middle school, and no one gives two shits that you are 'somebody' and 'leaker' worked for a smaller mag.

binaural111 (September 25, 2008)

Who does Scott Heisel think he is?

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flood (September 25, 2008)

Batman!

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

He thinks he's the King Shit of Fuck Mountain when in reality he's Little Lord Fauntleroy of Name Drop Valley.

LORD-OF-THE-GAYS (September 25, 2008)

A fat fuck nobody who's too stupid to realize that anyone with an ounce of good taste in music thinks his poser rag's best use isn't toilet paper.

AP can suck my fucking nuts and so can everyone involved with this ridiculous drama. fags.

Dumbloserme (September 25, 2008)

Scott Heisel is a gossipy little twat too. Who tells on people? What are we in second grade? Are you trying to get brownie points from Fat?

He should go write for TMZ.

They like people like you there.

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Dumbloserme (September 25, 2008)

and... let me clear that up. You may not of have alerted Fat of WHO it was.... but you still are the guy who goes to the police and says "Hey, there's a dude selling pot over on the corner. You might want to check it out".

Sigh.

MattRamone (September 25, 2008)

This is probably the best analogy in this thread.

12xu (September 25, 2008)

I'm really glad to hear that the mp3s I've been listening to are a rip from a stream because the sound quality is really pretty bad, and it's likely that the sound on the CD is going to be better.

I downloaded it because I wanted to hear the songs before I saw them played live last week. Paddy sounded really pissed at the leaker, but he doesn't blame people for downloading it, hell, he does it himself. He's was pissed that someone betrayed their trust.

LORD-OF-THE-GAYS (September 25, 2008)

This whole "drama" is just about enough reason to justify the death of punk rock. This site is just as guilt of spreading shit and egging this on as anyone. And I have no idea when AP was given any credence as being worthy of wasting air on, but fuck them, and fuck everyone that has soured the release of one of the last true "punk" records to come out.

Get fucked.

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BarcodedScene (September 25, 2008)

Dear Lord Of The Gays:

Thank you for giving us credit for "souring" Dillinger Four's latest. We're doing our best.
Do you need anything from the Caymans? Just thought I'd ask.

Carly Fiorina
ALTERNATIVE PRESS

LORD-OF-THE-GAYS (September 25, 2008)

Get back to work on the latest pin up of Hawthorne Heights and stop worrying about what ignorant twats like me have to say. No wonder your rag is in the sad state it's in.

Has anyone even bothered to ask D4 what they think about all this? Maybe you can put them on the cover next month and give a decent band some front-end coverage for once.

BarcodedScene (September 25, 2008)

Mr. Gay Lord:

Our intermediaries are well-aware of this "D4" organization. After inspecting and considering the prospectus put before us by said organization, we feel the sell-through ratio you specifically are projecting (cf. "cred points") is severely out of sync with real-market trends.

Nonetheless, we do appreciate your thinking of us, regardless of light. Perhaps we shall cross paths in Aruba this winter. "Sad state," indeed.

Very truly yours,
Ben S. Bernanke
ALTERNATIVE PRESS

ChokingVictim (September 25, 2008)

What I think of everything (in case anyone cares):

As someone mentioned above, no one is entitled to make money at anything. If the recording engineer or the musician isn't making enough money doing what they do, find a new career. If no one gets to see the bands we like because we aren't supporting them, that's our problem. I'd love to pay my bills playing drums in a band, but there's no money in it. So instead I am working towards a degree in accounting and playing drums in my free time. Sucks, but it's a free market economy and that's just how things go. If I want to put all my eggs in one basket and try to pay rent being in a punk band, that's my decision, but I have no right to bitch when it doesn't work.

Mr. Hale did something wrong, and he has taken responsibility for it. From a moral standpoint, I see no problem with it.

show rest of commentWhat I think of everything (in case anyone cares):

As someone mentioned above, no one is entitled to make money at anything. If the recording engineer or the musician isn't making enough money doing what they do, find a new career. If no one gets to see the bands we like because we aren't supporting them, that's our problem. I'd love to pay my bills playing drums in a band, but there's no money in it. So instead I am working towards a degree in accounting and playing drums in my free time. Sucks, but it's a free market economy and that's just how things go. If I want to put all my eggs in one basket and try to pay rent being in a punk band, that's my decision, but I have no right to bitch when it doesn't work.

Mr. Hale did something wrong, and he has taken responsibility for it. From a moral standpoint, I see no problem with it. I doubt D4, Fat, or anyone else involved with it is going to see much of a difference - the record wasn't going to bring in shit anyway (and I say this as a huge D4 fan). I have gotten advance records and shared them with a couple friends - it's not like the dude uploaded it to torrent sites. But, even though a lot of people don't see anything wrong with what he did, a lot of people do. He knew that, took a chance, and it backfired. Shit sucks, but he knew the possibility was there. In that sense, he has no one to blame for himself, and I think he understands that. His intentions were not wrong, he just made a mistake.

Mr. Heisel, professionally, didn't do anything wrong. I think the whole situation is shitty but no one can REALLY be pissed at what he did. Personally, I think the dude's a "holier-than-thou" douchebag and it shows in the way he has reacted to this whole situation...just more of the same old "I'm better than you guys" sentiment that he's displayed many times before.

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iamthebat (September 25, 2008)

Fucking non-sense.

If you are selling a product, and someone obtains said project, you either got paid or they stole it.

So yeah, they deserve, both ethically and legally, to make money.

ChokingVictim (September 26, 2008)

every single retail store plans for both internal and external theft. they take that loss and find ways to make up for it in other areas. it sucks, but it's a fact of 2008 that everyone involved in the music industry kinda just needs to accept - if they can't figure out a way to make up for their losses well then, they're fucked.

"ethically" speaking, you're right, but ethics only get you so far in the music industry...

iamthebat (September 26, 2008)

Then leave ethics behind and find more effective ways to prosecute.

crackpotdemagogue (September 25, 2008)

this whole thing is fucking confusing, and fucking stupid. and i don't understand why so many assholes are taking some kind of 'moral highground' on this issue. I downloaded the album, and i'm going to buy it too - because the art and the lyrics D4 put in to their albums make it worth doing so. What you all seem to be forgetting also, is that D4 as a band have never been interested in money as the motivator for their music - they've always consciously stayed 'underground' (refusing to play warped and such). They all still work day-jobs etc.. What people forget is that art is supposed to be expression, not paychecks... but then i remember most of you live in america - and it is only paychecks that matter

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RacketMagazine (September 25, 2008)

I both agree and disagree. Racket, in three years, has made a grand total of about -$2000. That's negative. As much as I would really enjoy making money from this shit, I work a day job to ensure that I do it in a way that I have control over. Or, as much control as I can have given the circumstances. With Racket the paycheck doesn't matter. With my day job, hellz yes, gimme dat paper!

crackpotdemagogue (September 25, 2008)

i've got total repect for that man, and i think the point i was trying to get at was mis-understood. Obviously in a capitalist economy, whereby the means of production is concentrated in the hands of the few (the man) - us, (the wage slaves) will always be forced (and it is forced) to have our lives dominated by paychecks and the chasing of them. The point i was getting at was the importance that is placed upon artists making money (which i don't think there is anything wrong with, providing it is money that is made ethically) and the way in which the making money has become more important than the art itself... you get me? you only have to look at the way bands behave now to see what i mean, and beyond music - the best artists are seen to be the ones who's stuff sells for the highest value (take damian hirst for example) and obviously this is bullshit and it actua

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RacketMagazine (September 27, 2008)

Well, thanks, man. Well, I think that is something that I have always brought up. Not to toot my own horn (Well, I'm not above it, obviously), but I really enjoyed this answer from my interview with Thomas of Strike Anywhere:

RJ: What is the ideal ratio of selling your art to support yourself to selling out?
SAT: That’s a good question. Part of selling art is not just to sustain your life as a touring band, to be able to afford some kind of shelter when you’re not on tour, healthcare and pet food, but also to spread your message and strengthen the counter-culture and to get other people involved. It wouldn’t be my band, but as part of a movement the music, the ideas and the courage that is part of it needs to grow, and I think that’s a bigger part of it. We’re a semi-self-sufficient band, but if we stop touri

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openedground (September 25, 2008)

yea people in the rest of the world work for self-satisfaction and the good of the world.

Shut the fuck up!

crackpotdemagogue (September 25, 2008)

ok, ok, it was a crass over-generalisation - but i was making a point of which america is case in point - your country's elite invented corporatisation of which's ideology all this 'copyright' madness was spawned. I shouldn've elaborated. the point is essentially about art in a capitalist, consumer led society - and the ill's that come with it.... eh?

IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

While money may not be the biggest motivating factor for the band, it is rather important to the record label and to the people who work to produce the album and get it made so that you can go to a store and buy it (I'm talking about studio personnel, recording engineers, the people doing the press and advertisements, and of course the folks actually making the physical CDs, booklets, cases, etc.). If the band didn't care about money at all then they could have recorded the album low-budget and given it away for free online. But they didn't. They signed a contract with a record label, and for better or worse that makes the album part of a business operation. And the people who depend on the label and the record contracts for a living often do care when these kinds of leaks happen. Sure, you and I are going to buy the album anyway, but we're not the majority. The majority

show rest of commentWhile money may not be the biggest motivating factor for the band, it is rather important to the record label and to the people who work to produce the album and get it made so that you can go to a store and buy it (I'm talking about studio personnel, recording engineers, the people doing the press and advertisements, and of course the folks actually making the physical CDs, booklets, cases, etc.). If the band didn't care about money at all then they could have recorded the album low-budget and given it away for free online. But they didn't. They signed a contract with a record label, and for better or worse that makes the album part of a business operation. And the people who depend on the label and the record contracts for a living often do care when these kinds of leaks happen. Sure, you and I are going to buy the album anyway, but we're not the majority. The majority of people who have the opportunity to have something for free rather than paying for it are going to take the free option.

"Art is supposed to be expression, not paychecks"...that's a "moral highground" if I've ever heard one. It's all fine & dandy to say, but you've still gotta eat and it still costs money to make an album and get it in stores, nevermind to tour and do all the other things that your "underground", "expressive" bands do. This is not only in America, it's true everywhere. Sure, you may not be a full-time musician; you may work a day job and do your music on the side mostly as a form of creative expression. But when you put in the effort to make an album, sign a contract with a label, and get that album in stores so it can be sold, you're probably hoping to at least break even on your investment (and of course the label is looking to profit from its investment in you). Very few people can afford, monetarily or motivationally, to produce art at a loss for very long.

crackpotdemagogue (September 25, 2008)

i agree with most of what you say man. however, people keep repeating a similar point to the one you make about "the people who depend on the label" as if these people's jobs are somehow determined by album sales alone...? these people will be paid regardless, and even if we are talking in the long term, i think it is fairly unrealistic to suggest that the leaking of albums is going to somehow kill the music industry. sounds like the boy who cried wolf to me (tape recording, anyone?). the only thing that will kill the music industry (using the term 'kill' loosley), is the impending collapse of the capitalist economy - and that has fuck all to do with leakage. In the current climate, people at the bottom end of the heirarchy in any so called 'industry' will suffer and that is one thing that is certain.

You also say "the majority of people who have th

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IllaZilla (September 25, 2008)

Heh, this reminds me of a Rocket from the Crypt shirt I have: "Home taping is killing the music industry...Killing ain't wrong". Which in itself is a parody of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Taping_is_Killing_Music

I don't really buy the "art being around before the dollar" argument. Cave paintings, sure, but even in medieval times artists were in it for occupation just as much as expression: painters and sculptors worked for patrons who paid them for their stuff. Why do you think all the medieval paintings and busts are of royals and nobles? Even the lyre player played his tunes in the courts of the nobles for payment, otherwise he busked it out on the street. As somebody further up on this page noted, Michaelangelo didn't paint the Sistene Chapel ceiling for free. "Art for art'

show rest of commentHeh, this reminds me of a Rocket from the Crypt shirt I have: "Home taping is killing the music industry...Killing ain't wrong". Which in itself is a parody of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Taping_is_Killing_Music

I don't really buy the "art being around before the dollar" argument. Cave paintings, sure, but even in medieval times artists were in it for occupation just as much as expression: painters and sculptors worked for patrons who paid them for their stuff. Why do you think all the medieval paintings and busts are of royals and nobles? Even the lyre player played his tunes in the courts of the nobles for payment, otherwise he busked it out on the street. As somebody further up on this page noted, Michaelangelo didn't paint the Sistene Chapel ceiling for free. "Art for art's sake" is definitely the minority of all art that is produced, and rock music is most certainly a consumerist type of art form. It's great that you and I and others in the punk community have the generosity to pay for things or to donate money even when we can get things for free, but that's not really the norm for Johnny Q. College Student who just wants to download the new Cobra Starship album. Most of my friends file-share without a moment's hesitation and haven't paid for most of their music in several years. I do, but I'm in the minority amongst my friends in that regard.

I'm not sure I agree with your Radiohead or NIN examples either. Radiohead never published their numbers of what people elected to pay for In Rainbows, but a survey showed that about 1/3 of people decided to pay nothing, with the average price being 4 pounds: http://entertainment.timesonline.co.uk/tol/arts_and_entertainment /music/article2633798.ece It's hard to measure their sales #s too, since the downloads didn't count, but it only sold 122,000 in the US in its first week and only went gold, vs. their earlier stuff which went multiplatinum. The last 2 NIN albums, which were given away free on their website as well as sold physically, didn't even hit the top 10 or get any sales certifications. And of course Radiohead and NIN can well afford to give their albums away for free; most bands would go bankrupt pretty quick going that route. To me these numbers all show that, given the choice, most people will take something for free rather than pay for it. Especially when the freebie is a download, because it doesn't even require you to get up off of your seat to get it.

crackpotdemagogue (September 26, 2008)

I think you missed the point i was tring to make about "art before the dollar". I was simply trying to illustrate that regardless of labels collapsing, capitalist crisis, depression, nuclear war - whatever... there will always be art. And i know these are extreme examples, obviously, but it serves to make the point that all these cries of 'downloading will kill music' etc etc are worthless and meaningless because music can never cease to exist.

And obviously artists throughout history have got paid for it... but don't forget all those who don't get paid or recognised (van gogh was unknown during his lifetime). I am not an idiot and i don't think there is anything wrong with making money from music or whatever artform like i said in my previous post - but i think there has to come a point when you question the ethics of a capitalist sytem that almost conditions s

show rest of commentI think you missed the point i was tring to make about "art before the dollar". I was simply trying to illustrate that regardless of labels collapsing, capitalist crisis, depression, nuclear war - whatever... there will always be art. And i know these are extreme examples, obviously, but it serves to make the point that all these cries of 'downloading will kill music' etc etc are worthless and meaningless because music can never cease to exist.

And obviously artists throughout history have got paid for it... but don't forget all those who don't get paid or recognised (van gogh was unknown during his lifetime). I am not an idiot and i don't think there is anything wrong with making money from music or whatever artform like i said in my previous post - but i think there has to come a point when you question the ethics of a capitalist sytem that almost conditions some musicians into getting greedy, and i don't think any examples are needed of that. Ideally, artists should be able to make a living doing what they so wish - but then the question lies with society and the importance it places upon the creation of its culture - local councils opening community art centres, issuing art grants to local artists etc etc... i digress.

On the topid of NIN and raidiohead etc... i still think you are cynical. Look at the Nine Inch Nails figures - Ghosts I-IV generated $1.6 million in it's first week despite being available free! and 1/3 of people not paying for the Radiohead album means 2/3 did pay... that's a majority. Are you trying to make my point for me?!

I've enjoyed this wee discussion... if you want to continue it by email or whatever, let me know! I'm always game for a bit of a disputation!

cr0mwell (September 25, 2008)

OK.. now that thats all wrapped up..

who's goin down for the Thursday/Envy leak

Seth_Uber_Alles (September 28, 2008)

Both Scott and the album leaker should just go die. Pigs. This whole thing is so hilariously stupid. The "punk" music industry is just as much of a joke as any other. Fuck Alternative Press. Mitch Clem hasn't really been funny for years, and is certainly a dick, but that comic was actually funny.

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