Punknews.org
Stavesacre - (stavz'a'ker) (Cover Artwork)

Stavesacre

Stavesacre: (stavz'a'ker)(stavz'a'ker) (2002)
Nitro Records

Reviewer Rating: 3.5
User Rating:


Contributed by: Aquaman5K
(others by this writer | submit your own)

I really wanted to like this record when I first listened to it. I have all of Stavesacre's albums, and they're one of my favorite bands. However, it took a few listens for this one to grab me. But enough about me and more about the band. This is Stavesacre's first album since leaving Tooth An.



I really wanted to like this record when I first listened to it. I have all of Stavesacre's albums, and they're one of my favorite bands. However, it took a few listens for this one to grab me. But enough about me and more about the band.

This is Stavesacre's first album since leaving Tooth And Nail for Nitro Records, and it mostly follows in the footsteps of their last record, speakeasy. I don't think it works quite as well as an album, but it does contain a few very good songs. Mark Solomon's Vocals are as always a highlight, and the occasional use of strings brings the intensity of the album up a notch. If you are at all a fan of the band, this record is a must. If you've never heard Stavesacre before, you may as well start here as this features some of their finest songs.

In the end, this is a solid album that will likely appeal to fans of Tool and AFI.

1. Witch Trial - 5/5 Awesome song, a really great choice to lead off the album.

2. Blind Hope - 4/5 A good solid song

3. Alice Wishlist - 4/5 I didn't like this one at first, but now it's growing on me.

4. Island - 5/5 Another gem, the backing vocals are simply excellent.

5. A Place Where I can breathe - 5/5 More rock!

6. If Not Now - 3/5 An alright song, but it didn't really grab me

7. Night Town - 2/5 Not quite up to par, reminds me too much of Sundown Motel from Speakeasy

8. The Sad Parade - 4/5 I dig this song.

9. Why Good People Suffer - 5/5 Here's the rock! Stavesacre shows a little hardcore edge in this track, and I have to say I like it.

10. Yes - 1/5 Hands down my least favorite track, it drags on for 5:26 and goes nowhere. I know Stavesacre was trying to write a little more "mellow" song here, but it simply falls flat in this case.

11. World to Wait - 4/5 A decent closer, but not quite perfect.

 


Please login or register to post comments.What are the benefits of having a Punknews.org account?
  • Share your opinion by posting comments on the stories that interest you
  • Rate music and bands and help shape the weekly top ten
  • Let Punknews.org use your ratings to help you find bands and albums you might like
  • Customize features on the site to get the news the way you want.
Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not respon sible for them in any way. Seriously.
Anonymous (January 7, 2004)

bump for the sheer stupidity of this argument.

Anonymous (December 9, 2002)

Parting comments from my friend:

I want YOU to know that I have overlooked YOUR personal attacks (I don't do well to people playing martyrs when they are the ones who started and had the most personal attacks). I could go through and list them if you want me to. I'll quote one for you, "you people are blind..."

Your questions have been answered in the time that was allowed. If you have others, please research them, but don't cross your arms and have this attitude of, "I'm taking my ball and going home." You asked simple questions and received answers that fulfilled them. I gave you plenty of resources: books, names of people, context, etc. What you do with them is now your choice. My guess is you won't do anything with them that involves studying. I pray that you do.

Thank you.

-JD0e-

Anonymous (December 9, 2002)

I appreciate your response. All of the extensive responses were written by a friend of mine (due to finals week), I apologize if any of his responses were found insulting, as that was never my intention. I enjoyed reading the debate, and encourage you to keep studying, as I will do as well. I think we can agree to disagree. This is an intense subject, and I hope there are no hard feelings.
-JD0e-

waste_elite (December 8, 2002)

-JD0e-, apparently you have a skewed view of a "suitable" response. suitable to me is something that answers the questions directly instead of talking your way around them. i've read everything you've posted and i've yet to see anything that is truly convincing or substantial.

i will ignore your personal attacks on me as i feel no need to "prove" my intelligence to you.

Anonymous (December 6, 2002)

Worship what you want. But it shouldn't affect me. And when it does, don't be surprised when I lash out against your "religious values".

Anonymous (December 6, 2002)

Poop on a plate....religion is poop on a plate.

maverick (December 6, 2002)

Just as a heads up to all of you - this review will be bumped off the page around roughly 3PM [CST], so get your final comments in now and bookmark it so you can come back later, or just start going to the Reviews Archive.

-Scott

Anonymous (December 6, 2002)

Holy fucken shit...What are you guys gonna do when this review isn't on the new reviews bar anymore?

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

The latest response, from my friend:

If a single sentence is flexible in regard to its context, then why are
other solitary passages given so much import?

Because people feel they exclaim single truths (which some do), but they are best seen and understood in their original contexts.

For example the line 'in the
name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost' appears only once in
the entire Bible, (Matthew 28:19) and yet it is at the center of one of the
great concepts of Christianity, the Trinity (Which, by the way, weakens
Christian claims to monotheism, in the eyes of Jews and Muslims).

There are many other proof texts for the Trinity. If you would like some of them, I can give them to you. Christians are not worried about what other people think. I do not care what you think about me or my beliefs. I am answering you because you have asked. We do not care what the Jews and Muslims think of our theology. The fact of the matter is that God is the most complex and deep Being alive. To understand even part of the Trinity is to scratch the surface of His depth.

There shouldn't even be an APPEARANCE of contradiction.

Says who, you? I would be less likely to believe it if it were all simple and prim-proper.

i don't care whether
there were not "verses and references" when the bible was written, that
really is irrelevant.

Then you have no idea about how Jews in that time thought about the Bible. What you want to do is just simply apply the Bible to now without looking at it in its original context. If you do it that way, you will never find the true meaning.

also, about the supposed "inferiority" of the KJV. god said his word would
be preserved and that he is not the author of confusion. if that is is the
case, there would be no innacurate translations and there would be no
confusion here.

Study the origin of the cannon and the different manuscript families. Have you studied textual criticism? I have, at length, and if you are not willing to listen to the history behind the 4 textual families (which is where we get the translations from today), then you have proven your lack of interest and your only purpose to instigate a meaningless debate.

the KJV is the most accurate and favored translation among the majority of
fundamentalists and literalists.

You haven't been searching very well then. The New American Standard Version is the most accurate. So is the NRSV and NIV. Even a Biblical scholar from Princeton or Harvard will tell you that. If the KJV is the best, then why is it that hardly any seminary in the world uses it as the main translation they teach from? Why is it that even no Jewish seminaries teach from the KJV Old Testament. ANSWER: Because it is the worst translation around.

this is the first time i've ever heard it
called the least accurate translation. interesting. also, the majority of
these contradictions are not in any way exclusive to the KJV.

They are cleared up with more accurate translations and reading the original language, or reading a commentary to see what it says in the original language.

the majority of these contradictions are in no way sufficiently defeated. if
you twist and contort the bible and what it "really means" enough, you could
make it say anything you really want. and that is what i see being done.

How do you see that in Protestant and Evangelical Christianity? By studying the original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek? By researching the literary and historical contexts of the book and time? By trying to see the author's original meaning? I see you doing what you have just criticized.

all i have to say is there are plenty more that i have posted down below and
i am waiting for you and your friends to make attempts at derailing them. i
feel like my intelligence has been insulted here, yet i have not been in any
way convinced by your arguments (many of which have not even been answered,
specifically the "fatal flaw" i posted).

So far, in your arguments, you have not proven your intelligence. Suitable answers have been given, but I do not have the time to go into 15 page essays on each question. You ask a simple question, you get a simple answer.

you people are blind. it is so absurd, the more i actually contemplate the
concept of christianity the more dumbfounded i am by the fact that people
actually believe this stuff.

1 Cor. 2:14

the blind have been blessed with security...

Are you speaking of yourself. You seem to be the blind, who are secure in the fact that you are right and we are wrong, or are you getting so defensive becausee you are starting to question yourself?

more to come...

Looking forward to it.

-JD0e-

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

"There shouldn't even be an APPEARANCE of contradiction" Religion is based on faith, and if everything made perfect sense and everyone agreed with it, there would be no test of faith

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

JD0e:
Nice job posting a what looks like a whole book.

Waste Elite:
you might try reading The Encyclopedia Of Bible Difficulties by Gleason Archer. It points out what appears to be contradictions and explains what it really means based on the times and the exact translation and how different greek or hebrew symbols can mean different things when translated. It deals with putting things in context and using the verses that come before and after, not just a tiny part of one verse like you use.
Or if you have time, say years, you could read the Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament. It's 10 volumes and will take you a very long time to read. But it is one of the definitive commentaries.

later days y'all.
-boba fett

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

Fuck religion, if god was real I'd cut him up with a knife....fucker would be an asshjole. But since no one knows IF god exists or not, I think it's time to qut reading your brainwashed bible books.

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

Intro
there are some parts of the Bible that are miraculous and cannot be explained. That is where faith arrives to the argument. Most of the questions are ones that can be answered, but there are a few that he will not find an answer for. It is those questions that he will rest his case on to prove the Bible's inaccuracy. However, we know that God is miraculous, and the only perfect being. Therefore, I have no problem in believing in the creation of the universe, the virgin birth, the resurrection of Jesus, God making the sun stand still for a day, the parting of the Red Sea and the Israelites walking through it on DRY ground, etc. One who does not have faith cannot understand our love and belief in God (1 Cor. 2:14).

Also, it is a laughing stock to quote Webster's dictionary to prove an argument (see "Firmament" argument).

research the manners, customs, and times of the days that parallel with verses he is ripping out of context.

Response
In Genesis are two contradictory stories of creation. In Genesis 1:20 & 21,
"every living creature" is brought forth from the waters, including every
winged fowl." But in 2:19 God brings forth "every beast of the field and
every fowl of the air" from dry ground.
In Genesis 1:2, earth comes into existence on the first day, completely
underwater. Only by the 3rd day were waters of the deep collected, and dry
land formed. But in Genesis 2:4, 5, & 6, earth on the first day was dry
land, unwatered.
The first story has trees made on the 3rd day and man formed 3 days later
(1:12-13 and 26-31). In the second version man was made before trees (2:7,
9). If chapter 1 is true, then fowls were created before man. If chapter 2
is true, then they were created after man.
Version one teaches man was created after all beasts. The second is clear,
Adam was created before beasts. (1:25,27 versus 2:7,19).
In version one, man and woman are created simultaneously (1:27) while in
version two (2:7,20-22), man and woman are separate acts of creation.

Even the most liberal Bible scholars will agree that Genesis 2 is a recaption of Genesis 1. Also, there are no days listed in Genesis 2. Gen. 2 is merely a commentary on Genesis 1.

In Genesis, the long discredited description of the heavens as a "firmament"
is a fundamental contradiction in the Bible of the known realities of
astronomy today. Biblical stars, sun and moon are all embedded "in" this
firmament. (The meaning, during biblical times, of the word "firmament," was
a "solid" body or orb, or the solid concentric domes holding the heavenly
bodies ~ Webster's Third International Dictionary.) We are told there are
waters below the firmament, and told waters are "above" it, too (1:7).
Really!!

Number one, never prove a point about the original Hebrew language by quoting "Webster's Dictionary." No scholar in their right mind uses that as a proof for their point. If you want to know the meaning of words, look up words in books like: The Dictionary of New Testament Theology; The Exegetical Dictionary of the Old Testament; The Theological Dictionary of the New and Old Testament; etc. "Water" in Hebrew is "ha-myim" and "sky" is "ha-shymiym." In Hebrew, they are closely related and "sky" is from the word "water." "Firmament" is "raqia" in Hebrew. It is translated "expanse, literally to hammer out." It speaks of God's creative force in "spreading out the earth." Now, all that to say that I believe in a canopy theory. Meaning that there was water below the "raqia" and above the "raqia." That is why it is important to see that the word "sky" comes from "water." There was a greenhouse effect on the earth. There is actually proof from many scientests that there may be planets (and probably have been planets) that have had this greenhouse effect.

Babylonian Astronomers envisaged earth as a hollow mountain surrounded by a
vast sea. Inside the earth lay the dark, dusty realm of the dead. Arching
over earth is the "circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22) or the solid firmament
(Greek: solid body; firm foundation) on which moved sun, moon, planets and
stars, somehow. Held above the firmament was water (for rain, to come
through "windows"), and the firmament domes were supported by a ring of
raised earth set in the midst of the sea. [In later times, astronomy saw the
addition of more firmaments to better account for the separate motions of
the moon, sun and planets. The firmaments were seen as complex rotating
solid concentric domes, one within another.]

So? See above see the previous answer. Your point doesn't prove anything.

Why was the firmament formed in the "midst" of earth's "waters"(1:6)?
Clearly, this is an image of a dome-like firmament over flat waters of a
flat earth. Had earth commonly been known to be round then, the writers
wouldn't need to have God set the domes in the sea, a notion likely
conceived to keep seas from draining off over the "edges" or "ends" of the
earth.

No, the the Bible does not say that the earth is flat. See the previous answer.

The Bible's scribes exactly copied the ignorant inventions of Babylonian
firmament astronomy of that time, including its words and concepts of
windows and doors in the firmament for rain!

Perhaps the Babylonians got their traditions from a religion older than theirs: Patriarchal Judaism. Perhaps that is why they seem to similar. There is adequate proof that Judaism's roots are the oldest religious roots of the world.

"Above the firmament" (Gen. 1:7) is where the huge supply of water needed
for the Flood was stored -- more than all earth's clouds could ever provide.
As we read in the account of the Flood, God ended the rains using Babylonian
astronomy again (Gen. 8:2): "the WINDOWS of heaven were stopped and the
rain...restrained." (My emphasis)

The water canopy crashed down on the earth, and God opened the waters of the deep.

Did God speak thus, to be understood and not confuse or mentally upset those
living then? Could it really upset people then to deal with truthful
astronomy -- the same people who were ready to believe in a virgin birth or
a that a woman could be born from a man's rib-bone?

It might surprise you to know that many astronomers have become Christian over the past years, and may scientests say that they believe in the God of the Bible because of the complexity of the universe. It would do you well to read some Christian scientests view of creationism. Let me recommend some:

Francis Beckwith (Ph.D., M.A. in Philosophy, Fordham University; M.J.S., Washington University School of Law, St. Louis)

John Bloom (Ph.D., M.S., in Physics, Cornell University; Ph.D., M.A. in Near Eastern Studies, Annenberg Research Institute; M.A., M.Div., Biblical Theological Seminary)

Paul Chien (Ph.D. in Biology, University of California, Irvine)

William Lane Craig (D.Theol. in New Testament, Ludwig-Maximilliens-Universitat Munchen; Ph.D. in Philosophy, University of Birmingham, England; M.A., M.A., in Philosophy, Trinity Evangelical Divinity School)

William Dembski (Ph.D. in Mathematics, University of Chicago; Ph.D. in Philosophy, University of Illinois; M.Div., Princeton Theological Seminary)

Stephen C. Meyer (Ph.D., M.A., in History and Philosophy of Science, Cambridge University, England)

J.P. Moreland (Ph.D. in Philosophy, University of Southern California; M.A. in Philosophy, Univeristy of California, Riverside; Th.M. in Theology; Dallas Theological Seminary)

Henry Morris (Ph.D., M.S. in Science, University of Minnesota)

John Mark Reynolds (Ph.D., M.A., University of Rochester)

Hugh Ross (Ph.D., M.S. in Astronomy, University of Toronto, Canada)

(NOTE: Christian scholar Saint Augustine [354-430 A.D.] and Father
Lactantius, etc., continued the traditional denial of the earth's roundness,
claiming rain would "fall upward" in places and that even if upside-down
people could live on a globe's bottom, then they couldn't see the Savior's
return in glory.)

There have been many mis-guided Christians who did not know how to interpret the Bible. Just as there are many mis-guided scientests and philosophers today. Are we talking about what the Bible says or what others say? I prefer to read the Bible.

Two contrary Genesis versions suggests at least two writers, both ignorant
or unmindful of each other, and ignorant of the facts of nature and
astronomy, not to mention the age of the earth.

Is the age of the earth important in the greater scheme of life? I don't stay up at nights wondering about it. Do you? Also, there is great debate about the word "day" among Christian and secular scholars as to whether the word day means one 24 hour period or many years.

Let any secular writer pen a book with so many contradictions (more of which
will follow), on science, geology, morals or anything, and the world would
plunge, as a vulture on carrion, to heap monumental scorn over the work.
As "history," the Bible is unique. In First Kings 16:6,8 the king of Israel,
Baasha, dies, replaced by his son Elah during the 26th year of Asa's (King
of Judah) reign. But in Second Chronicles l6:1 we read that Baasha, king of
Israel, goes against Judah during Asa's 36th year.

1 Kings is talking about the kings of Israel and 2 Chronicles is speaking of the kings of Judah. Each of these kingdoms had different calenders that they worked from. They are saying the same date, but from two different calenders.That is why it is hard to pinpoint the date of the book of Daniel, because you have Daniel serving Nebuchadnezzar (Babylon), Darius (Mede-Persian), and Cyrus. All of them had different dates for the same periods. This is not an error of the Bible, but rather the complexity of caleders. Others who had a different calender were the: Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes and Persians, Greeks, Romans, etc. Read the Historical context!

In Genesis 9:3: "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat" for Noah. But
Deuteronomy (14:7-21) later gives a list of animals, birds and fish that
must not be eaten.

Because of the area that they were living in at that time... certain animals, birds, and fish would cause disease. It would be like me trying to eat fish from the dirtiest river in the world... not too healthy for me, ezpecially since they did not always cook the food all the way.

Circumcision is required (Gen.17:10), and useless (Gal. 5:2).
Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Gen.16:15 & 21:3) but Isaac was
Abraham's "only" son? (Gen. 22:2,12 & Heb. 11:17).

The word for "only" is the word "special." It means that Isaac was his unique son, because it is through Isaac's line that the Jews would come, and Jesus would also come through his line.

In Exodus 33:20, says God, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall be
no man see me and live." God must have been mistaken, or changed: For in
Genesis 32:30 Jacob sees God "face to face" and lives. The same for Moses,
Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 elders, who saw God, and ate and drank with him
(Exodus 24:9-11). But not so, says First John 1:18: "No man hath seen God at
any time."
How decide? Well, I agree with John.
God dwells "in the light which no man can approach" (1 Tim. 6:l6). But this
is not true, as in First Kings 8:12 it says: "The Lord said that he would
dwell in the thick darkness."

Again, read the context. They did not see His face. They were in His presence. There is a big difference. See the answer to a similar question you posed in a previous e-mail.

Would literalists say I shouldn't be so "literal"? Is the "light" in which
Jesus dwells "en(light)enment?" Does God remain in thick darkness but keeps
this "light" of enlightenment?

Darkness refers to the clouds that surround God to shield people from His glory and fire. See a reference of God coming to the mountain in Ex. 19:16-21).

But aren't we opening a Pandora's box of endless "interpretation" here?
Where do we draw the line if we do that?
When the cry (Josh.10:12-13) "Sun, stand thou still" (and moon too) was
uttered and carried out, the sun "stood still" in the sky, not setting.
But of course, as we all now know about astronomy, a 'setting sun' is an
inaccurate archaic and figurative phrase reflecting only the illusion of a
moving sun. It's created by the actual motion of a rotating earth around its
own axis. In the solar system, the sun is, of course, already "still" (while
the moon isn't). But, I guess God knew what Joshua "meant," and instead of
quibbling over astronomical facts, He allowed the Bible writings to describe
it inaccurately (using the primitive terminology of the knowledge of the
time). So God magically stilled both the earth and moon (and did it without
cataclysmically throwing our land and continents off into space). But then,
there's that "interpretation" thing again, because the "word of God"
definitely does say the sun "stood still" (implying incorrectly that it had
been in motion) and not that it "appeared" to, or that the "Earth stood
still." Is the Bible literal or figurative? (See also Eccl. 1:5, about "the
Sun also riseth...." and Chron 16:30; Psalms 93:1 [Earth is already
immovable])

This is a miraculous event. God made a day stand still. This takes faith to believe in. See my introductory comment. Interpretation is a funny thing, and within the Bible there are different genres: History, Law, Poetry, Prophecy, Apocolyptic, Gospel, Letters, etc). Each has a different rule of interpretation. Here are some good books on interpretation:

D.A. Carson, Exegetical Fallacies
Robertson McQuilkin, Understanding and Applying the Bible
Robert Stein, A Basic Guide to Bible Interpretation
Roy Zuck, Basic Bible Interpretation

and the best... Biblical Hermeneutics: A Comprehensive Introduction to Interpreting Scripture. Written by: Bruce Corley, Steve Lemke, and Grant Lovejoy.

Matthew quotes Jesus (19:26), "with God all things are possible." Did
Matthew or Jesus forget something? In the Book of Judges (1:19) God is not
almighty, as he helped rid Judah of inhabitants of the mountain, but could
not drive out those in the valley "because they had chariots of iron."
This God of miracles apparently can move the largest body in the solar
system, the Sun (or at least stop planet earth), in order to prolong
daylight for Joshua's military revenge (or to move the sun's shadow 10
degrees backward [2 Kings 20:10-11 or Isaiah 38:7- 8]). Yet this same mover
of heavens is cowed by mere horses & buggies made of iron?

It was not God's will for them to have that land. If God had wanted them to have it, they would have. Just because it says that "God was with them" does not mean that God gives them all that they want. Also, as a result, Caleb recieved his land, which was a promise of God.

Exodus 31:I7: Like a man, God rests and can be "refreshed." Isaiah scorns
such contemptible weakness.
In 40:28 he insists God, creator of the "ends of the earth, fainteth not,
neither is weary." An infinite God cannot tire, nor needs to be - nor can be
-- "refreshed."

Please look up the original meaning of words before you make assumptions. The word for "rest" did not mean that God was tired as we see the word "rest" today. I think that a word can change over several thousand years. The word in Hebrew means that God merely stopped working on that project. Read the original language.

Again on astronomy, the spectre of "interpretation" rises, asking us: 'what
are these "ends" of the earth' quoted above? A spherical planet has no
"ends." Even a flat plate or the line of a circle is "endless." The phrase
"ends of the earth" then, was not figurative: We know the common belief then
was that earth, very literally, did have "ends." Nowhere in the Bible is the
earth described as "spherical." (See also Rev. 7:1: "...four angels standing
on the four corners of the earth" & Daniel 4:10-11. Daniel's words here make
little sense for a spherical earth)

There are some places in the Bible that are taken to be literal, and some that are metaphorical. Can you tell the difference between metaphors and literal statements? I'm sure that you make metaphorical statements as well. There is a deeper meaning. Again, I must direct you to study the interpretation of Apocolyptic literature.

GOD does not change. James 1:17 says God has "no variableness..." but then,
in Jonah 3:10, God "repented" and changed his mind about smiting Nineveh's
people. So what are we to think of assurances given in Numbers 23:19, which
states, "God is not a man...neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Yet this tireless omnipotent God himself volunteers the striking thought in
Jeremiah 15:6, "I am weary with repenting."
How human that confession sounds by a presumably unchanging God who 'cannot
weary' (as Isaiah wrote above), nor repent.

In Jonah 3:10 the word for "repented" is the word "comapassion." GET A DIFFERENT TRANSLATION!!! He did not change His mind about Nineveh. His impending wrath was resting upon them, and would have devoured them if they had not repented. Nineveh was the one who changed its mind. Check the context, buddy. Also, God is outside of time. That is a huge philosophical statement in and of itself.

In Deuteronomy 4:24 "God is a consuming fire, but in John 4:1 "God is love."
He's "the God of Peace" in Romans 15:33 but in Exodus 15:3, "the Lord is a
man of war." (Called a "man" here? Yet not called a man in Numbers 23:19?)

God has many sides to Him. One might call me happy, but another may call me mad. Why? Because at one time when one saw me I was happy, and another time I was sad... I am still who I am, but I do have emotions. The same is true with God. Also, the original meaning in Ex. 15 of the word you defined as "man" is actually the word "warrior."

God is "just and right" (Deut.32:4) yet in a mercenary manner he advises, in
the dietary restrictions, that what you can't eat as unclean may be given
"unto the stranger...or thou mayest sell it unto an alien." Gee, has the
Better Business Bureau heard of this "just and right" commercial behavior?
(Deut.l4:21)

Because stangers and aliens were from different areas and use to different foods. It is like us going to Mexico and trying to drink the water. They are use to it, but we are not. This is a similar situation. Also, God is interested in those who believe in Him first.

God said (Isaiah 45:7) "I make peace and create evil," a contradiction in
one holy breath!! (And we all thought, of our own evil, it was 'the devil
made me do it.')

I answered this in a previous e-mail.

"Now go and smite Amelek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare
them not; but slay both man and woman infant and suckling, ox and sheep,
camel and ass" (1 Sam. 15:3). That was Samuel's order for Saul originating
from the Lord. Wrote one Bible commentator, M. J. Gauvin:
"Slay the old man with trembling hands and silvered hair; murder the mother
who shields with her body the life of her child; rifle the cradle, and
plunge the glittering sword of death through the frail form of the smiling
babe ...and know, ye fiends of ruthless slaughter, ye but fulfil the command
of the God whose 'mercy endureth forever'!"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself?" (Lev.l9:l8). Mass murder is again condoned
in Exodus 32:27; in Deut. 2:15-16 and 34-36 and 3:2. No "just and right" God
of true peace or love could command a massacre of innocents. These are the
writings and contradictions in a religious human-inspired literature coming
from the biases and values of an uncivilized warrior peoples. To call this
the "inspired words" of a merciful, worthy Deity should be a base insult to
even the meanest intelligence.

God is not held to the same standards as we who are flawed humans. He is perfect, and has a perfect plan. The word for faith is defined by 3 words: Belief, Obedience, and Trust. I trust God even when I don't understand, because I believe that His plan is perfect. God is the Creator of life, and is the only one that has the right to take it away.

Sacrifices of helpless animals, even human sacrifices, such as of Isaac,
offered by Abraham (but stopped), or of Jeptha's daughter, or the seven sons
of David, are plentiful in the Bible, and are acceptable practices ordained
by the Lord. See also Leviticus 27:28-29 about how humans, lands and beasts
can be sacrificed. Yet elsewhere God condemns it as an abomination and is
"weary to bear them." (Jer.7:22 & Is.1:11-16)

Lev. 17:11... God has a purpose for everything. You need to study Substitutionary Atonement before you attack God's purpose.

Speaking of abominations, there is the mere handling of pigskin
(Lev.ll:7-8). Woe unto football players!

This is a different time and context than today. It was there for a purpose. Pigs carried bad diseases at that time.

And woe unto those who curse their parents, for such deserve death
(Lev.20:9). Yet they are enjoined to also hate mom and dad too, in order to
become disciples (Luke 14:26).

Jesus does not mean "hate" in your definition, but rather that we are to love God more than them.

Resurrections? Job 7:9 says who "goeth down to the grave shall come up no
more." The Old Testament denies immortality in no uncertain terms. The New
Testament proclaims it - but as an eternal agony for most of you.
All these contradictions make biblical words appear as if they are a
departure from sanity - if they were the words of one consistent, unchanging
being.

Job means our physical body "no more" in this life. But in the next life we will recieve a new body... that is what a resurrection is. Not merely just coming back to life. Read the terminology.

You'll read that children will suffer for the sins of the parents, yet
elsewhere, read that no one will bear sins other than their own (Ex.20:5 vs
Ezek.l8:20).

I answered this in a previous e-mail.

The Sabbath is required to be kept as holy, but -- each of us can make up
our own minds (Ex.20:8 vs Rom.l4:5)

This has to do with Freedom in Christ. We believe in Christ and are free from keeping the 613 laws in the Old Testament. The 613 laws were put into effect to show us that God has a high standard that we cannot meet, and the only way that we can is a relationship wtih Jesus Christ. We who are no longer under the law (Col. 2:14) have to "love our neighbors and God as ourselves." In some ways, that is more binding than 613 commands in the OT. I cannot love my fellow sister in Christ and lust after her. I cannot love someone and kill them, etc.

"Judge not, that ye be not judged' (Matt.7:l), yet others must be judged?
(1Cor. 6:2-4).

The word for "judge" in Matthew is actually "condemn" and the kind of judgment that 1 Cor. is speaking of is holding someone accountable for their actions.

There's but one allowed reason (adultery) to divorce your wife, but
elsewhere, divorce can be for any reason (Matt.5:32 vs Deut.2l:l4 & 24:1-3).
Note, in this Deuteronomy a divorced woman can safely and sinlessly marry
again, but in Matthew, a divorced woman that remarries is guilty of
adultery, which deserves death of both her and her new husband (Lev.20:10).
Neat sense of fairness, eh?

This is a protection of the wife. Men were divorcing their wives for every little thing back then. God does not want the man or her to get a divorce because women were not able to find work in those days, and would have to sell her body to live. God is saying if you do divorce her, then you are guilty of causing her to do this.

If Eve was created merely from Adam's rib, it's no wonder that women are
valued less than men, as in Leviticus 27:3-7, where a man's value in shekels
is double that of a woman.
Or: "neither was man created for woman but woman for man" (lCor. 11:8-9).
This "Just and right" God in Exodus 21:20-21 approves a further double
standard: Whereas adultery or just hitting your parents deserves death
(Ex.2l:l5), a master beating a servant or maid to death with a rod shall
only "be punished" in some non- lethal manner.

Context.

In Exodus 21:2I, the master can remain unpunished for beating servants daily
because the servant "is his money." Similarly, throughout this chapter, is
the sale and possession of human beings condoned (21:4,7).
'The Boss don't like no back-talk' is clear in Exodus 21:5-6: If a servant
doesn't want to be sent away from his family (owned by the master) but says
he loves them and will not leave, master can "bring him unto the door, or
unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul;
and he shall serve him forever."
"Just and right"? One believer wrote me the Old Testament's inspired words
were meant to "mitigate or regulate" behavior and raise it to a "more humane
level" than usually practiced. Gimme a break! If the Old testament isn't
"static or forever," as he wrote, why doesn't he also take the stories of
Genesis as equally not final nor literal factual truth? Why one and not the
other?
Not only is slavery in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament, too:
First Timothy 6:1,8 states those "under the yoke" (i.e. slaves) shall give
"all honour" to their masters, and suggests in its context we should be
grateful for scraps and rags without critique nor envy.
Again in Ephesians 6:5, obedience to masters by servants is urged to be just
like obedient worship given Christ. Worship the Boss?
However, this backward morality (which is excused as too entrenched in those
times for even God to overthrow completely, God preferring to moderate it
instead), was not too hard for a mere mortal, Spartacus, to challenge
totally. How can a non-god espouse more advanced ideals of freedom, and
oppose slavery completely, when the God of all the universe could only
weakly compromise those principles among his subjects?

Each of thse examples have their meaning and purpose as interpreted with what was happening during that time and day. You have no idea (and have probably not done extensive research) in the manners and customs of those days of the Hebrews. Therefore, you are making blanket statements without contextual research.

"No evil shall happen to the just" we're told (Prov.l2:21). Yet Job, about
whom God said no one else on earth was nearly as good and upright, is
nevertheless handed over, by God, to Satan for torture (Job 2:3-7). The
fate, also in the modern world, of good Christians and innocents under the
protection of God's proverb, is horrendous.

Proverbs are a different genre of the Bible, and thus have different rules of interpretation. They are principles to rely on, not necessarily solid facts.

Moses is the meekest man in the world (Num.l2:3), yet he orders the butchery
of women and children in cold blood and the taking of female children, who
are still virgins, to keep alive "for yourselves" under the permission of
God (Num.31:17)

That is God's command, not Moses'. I'm tired of telling you to read the context agian, but I guess I have to say that again. Also, we don't always understand God's ways, but trusting God is something we are to do.

The Bible speaks well of liquor and also condemns it (Deut. 14:226 vs
Prov.20:l).

The Bible says it is okay to drink, but not to get drunk. There, the Bible is referring to relying on liquor.

It says avoid temptation, but welcome it too (Matt.6:l3 vs James 1:12).

Because we learn from them, not because we are to seek them.

The same dichromatics appear for wealth as First Timothy preaches (6:10)
"love of money is the root of all evil," added to by Luke 6:24, but denied
by Proverbs 10:15, and elsewhere there.

2 different contexts, genres, etc. Paul in 1 Tim. says that money is not evil, but our selfish desire for money is evil. Proverbs 10:15 does not even fit in the same bracket as what Paul is discussing in 1 Tim. Prov. is making a statement that seems to be true. Cities rise because of wealth. That is not supporting money, just making a statement. Check the context.

Here's more "perfect harmony" of the Bible's words: According to Luke,
Christ ascended in the flesh. Paul says "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the
kingdom of heaven" (Luke 24:39-51 vs 1 Cor.15:50).

Christ ascended to heaven in His new resurrection body, not His earthly body. Study the theology of resurrection.

The evening of Christ's resurrection is the time of ascension for Luke, but
Acts dates it 40 days after, (Luke 24:1-59 vs Acts 1:3 ). After
resurrecting, Jesus was to meet the disciples, says Matthew, in Galilee; but
says Luke, it was to be in Jerusalem -- merely 100 miles apart!
(Matt.28:l6-17 vs Luke 24:33-36).

First of all, there are only 53 verses in Luke 24. There is no contradiction between Luke and Acts. Read the times again. Luke includes different stories, and Acts 1 is a summary of what Jesus said when he ascended. As far as Galilee and Jerusalem, Jesus met with His disciples at various times and places during His last days on earth after the resurrection and before the ascension. These are 2 of them. He ascended from the Mount of Olives.

"I and my Father are One" (John 10:30). But, "My Father is greater than I"
(John 14:28) and "My God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Math. 27:46). The
contradictions seem as infinite as God.

I commented on the theology of the Trinity in my last e-mail.

Let your good deeds shine before men "that they may see your good works." So
much for modesty. Then Matthew has Jesus say "Take heed that ye do not your
alms before men to be seen of them." (Matt. 5:l6 vs 6:1)

I answered this in a previous e-mail.

Many other details of the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension are
disparate. This, of course, is normal when it's different human witnesses
describing any traumatic event, committing errors such as misquoting,
forgetting what was said exactly or reinterpreting meaning through the
biased sieve of one's own prejudices. For example: Facing Pilate, Christ
spoke only two words, said Matthew. John said Christ gave a speech! (Matt.
27:11 vs John 18:34-37).

If you and two other people saw an accident you might tell the same story, but with 3 different variations. Each adding something more that the other one did not.

We are told repeatedly, the marvelous works found in nature, or all the
universe, "require" and prove a creator's existence. But in the ultimate
logical inconstancy of the Bible, it says nothing about why the greatest
marvel of all needs no creator.
If God does not need to be created, what did God do before the universe?
Where did God exist? Nowhere in Genesis did God create "time." Why not?
Because so ubiquitous is time to us, it's "only human" to lose awareness of
such a constant sensation (much as we mask out the sound of an electric fan
blowing in our room or the engine's hum when we drive). Thus its need to be
created failed to be recorded by human scribes who really couldn't conceive
(nor notice) that it even needed to be created. [See Appendix below.]
Did God create himself out of nothingness?

This is a concept of great debate. Time does have an end (Daniel 12:4). Dr. William Lane Craig (one of the scholars that I listed in your Genesis questions) has a great lesson on this. I am actually studying it now on a taped lecture he gave. He would do a much better job teaching you than I. Type in his name under authors at amazon.com and he has several books that might interest you. Especially his book: Time and Eternity: Exploring God's Relationship to Time.

I am no Bible scholar, but I know this is but surface-scratching the tip of the iceberg
about Bible errors and conflicts, and it already proves it a fallible human document of
many inaccuracies, failures of logic, with biases and mixed motives shown by
petty witnesses and superstitious, ignorant drinking buddies. Maybe they had one too many?

This is a stupid, snoby pun. Maybe you had one too many and that is why you cannot do proper research and interpretation. Study your own questions before you pose them. Next time you write, why don't you pose some real challenging questions like the idea of different theologies, Q, the Dead Sea Scrolls, etc.
-JD0e-

waste_elite (December 5, 2002)

a question about context:

If a single sentence is flexible in regard to its context, then why are other solitary passages given so much import? For example the line 'in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Ghost' appears only once in the entire Bible,(Matthew 28:19) and yet it is at the center of one of the great concepts of Christianity, the Trinity (Which, by the way, weakens Christian claims to monotheism, in the eyes of Jews and Muslims).

There shouldn't even be an APPEARANCE of contradiction. i don't care whether there were not "verses and references" when the bible was written, that really is irrelevant.

also, about the supposed "inferiority" of the KJV. god said his word would be preserved and that he is not the author of confusion. if that is is the case, there would be no innacurate translations and there would be no confusion here.

the KJV is the most accurate and favored translation among the majority of fundamentalists and literalists. this is the first time i've ever heard it called the least accurate translation. interesting. also, the majority of these contradictions are not in any way exclusive to the KJV.

"You see, 99% of these so called "contradictions" people call attention to all the time defeat themselves in the verses right after. These contradictions are merely started by some person in bondage to themselves, refusing to be subjected to any authority in their lives because they consider themselves "too smart" for a religion. They are the ones who read the Bible with thier mind already decided, and use singe verses to point out flaws, without reading the context of the verse. Then they go and say, post these "flaws" on the internet, up for grabs for other to read, and qoute in their arguments."

the majority of these contradictions are in no way sufficiently defeated. if you twist and contort the bible and what it "really means" enough, you could make it say anything you really want. and that is what i see being done.

all i have to say is there are plenty more that i have posted down below and i am waiting for you and your friends to make attempts at derailing them. i feel like my intelligence has been insulted here, yet i have not been in any way convinced by your arguments (many of which have not even been answered, specifically the "fatal flaw" i posted).

"And you know how people will rally around something dismissing something widely believed by many people because it's different from the majority."

hate to break it to you kurt, but the majority of the world does not believe in the bible or christianity.

"They are the ones who read the Bible with thier mind already decided"

no kurt, that is people like you. people that forsake logic and rational thinking and will believe everything in the bible despite its absurdity. ignorance is bliss.

"It's so predictable, and it's truly Satan at work."

you people are blind. it is so absurd, the more i actually contemplate the concept of christianity the more dumbfounded i am by the fact that people actually believe this stuff.

the blind have been blessed with security

more to come...

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

o my god, i can't see how anyone could possibly be convinced by those "explanations".

Kurt_F (December 5, 2002)

Ooooh dear. I cannot believe that non-sense posted down there by Waste.

"Again in Ephesians 6:5, obedience to masters by servants is urged to be just like obedient worship given Christ. Worship the Boss?"

IF YOU QOUTE A VERSE, YOU MIGHT AS WELL QUOTE THE ENTIRE THING. IT IS ALL ABOUT CONTEXT.

Yes, it says to be obedient to your master. Nowhere does it say to worship them. Nice try attempting to slip that in there though.

Anyways, it then goes on to say to be "obedient to them with sincerity in your heart, as to Christ, not by way of eyeservice (like man-pleasers) but rather as slaves to Christ, doing the will of God from the heart. With good will render service, as to the Lord, and NOT TO MEN, knowing that whatever good thing each one does, this he will recieve back from the Lord, whether slave or free. And masters, DO THE SAME THINGS TO THEM, and GIVE UP THREATENING, knowing that both their master and yours is IN HEAVEN, and there is no partiality with HIM." (Epehesians 6:5-9)

You see, 99% of these so called "contradictions" people call attention to all the time defeat themselves in the verses right after. These contradictions are merely started by some person in bondage to themselves, refusing to be subjected to any authority in their lives because they consider themselves "too smart" for a religion. They are the ones who read the Bible with thier mind already decided, and use singe verses to point out flaws, without reading the context of the verse. Then they go and say, post these "flaws" on the internet, up for grabs for other to read, and qoute in their arguments. And you know how people will rally around something dismissing something widely believed by many people because it's different from the majority. (like the fake moon landing debate)

Joe Bob: Hi, I'm a Christian.
Punk Rock Pete: F that pussy stuff! Look right here, it says in the Bible that (insert so called "contradction" right here) and (another one) what do you have to say about that?
Punk Rock Rick: Yea man, screw that crap.

It's so predictable, and it's truly Satan at work.

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

"Wars over religion are like fighting over who has the best imaginary friend".

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

Wow....you really went through a lot of trouble to explain to me something that i don't feel even exists- religion. It doesn't matter if "god" creates confusion or not.....in my mind god doesn't exist, so he doesn't create confusion. Confusion is created by the people who worship something they don't REALLY know exists. I'm not dismissing the idea that thewre is "some sort" of god, but not and not you know FOR SURE. That's my point. Don't preach to me all your religions and conservative nonsense, it means nothing to me. It's all bullshit and if you don't like what someone does, leave.

Anonymous (December 5, 2002)

This response is from a trusted friend of mine.

If you are going to study the Bible and point out contradictions, please read the literary and historical context (and original meanings of words) of verses before bringing accusations to the table. Dont just taking random verses and comparing them against each other without studying the proper way. People in those days did not have the Bible in verses. When Jesus quoted the Old Testament verses, people remembered in terms of the entire passage that surrounded that verse (and what the passage meant), not just one little verse.

2. Get a new version. The King James version is so old and filled with errors. There are 4 major manuscript families (or original versions of the Bible):

a. Alexandrian (the most trusted, from which the NIV, NASB, and other versions come from)
b. Western
c. Caesarean
d. Byzantine (the least trusted, where the KJV comes from).

3. You cannot do well by trying to disprove the God of the Bible by comparing Him to humans. Humans are selfish and depraved by nature. God is also outside of time. We cannot comprehend that fact well enough. Also, it is like an ant trying to criticize us for being too big, fast, etc. To be different than an ant is our nature. An ant does not have the depth or mind capacity to understand how complex a human is.

4. You're is reading the Bible with presuppositions that it is wrong. That is what I did when I first studied the Bible, and I found the Bible to prove me wrong.

5. You are reading the Bible as an unbeliever. Read 1 Cor. 2:13-16 (especially verse 14).

Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his
side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam.
6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

One, God says that we are not to murder, He does not say kill. God is the Creator of life, and is the only One that has the right to tell someone to take away life. He was also purging His nation of the idolatry that they picked up in Egypt. It is not proper to think that God (a perfect being) is held to the same standards as we humans who are so selfish.

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex
34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which
are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

God means in Exodus that He is jealous of us as a husband is jealous of his wife, or a parent of their child. That is not wrong jealousy. Jealousy in that sense is a good thing. In Gal. God is referring to the the jealous desires of that people have for things that do not belong to them.

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy
prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11;
Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

We are not to tell lies of our own free will. However, if you read the ENTIRE context of 1 Kings 22 and some of the other chapters, these kings are already liars. They should be supporters of God and have His Holy Spirit, but because they have turned their back on their God and true King, God allowed them to be possessed by the spirit that they truly were practicing already: lying.

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

God is the ultimate Creator of the world, and He has the right to give and take as He pleases. His will and plan are perfect, unlike humans. It also says in Ex. 3:22 that the Jews were to ASK their neighbors...and as a result of asking and receiving, the Egyptians are plundered.

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num.
15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot
away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

We are to keep the Sabbath to rest (that does not mean that we are not to do no work, but to stay home). Meaning, God knows that it can be our nature to work, work, work, and not stop. Many Jews turned the Sabbath into a day of restrictions where you could hardly do anything. That is what the Lord means in this passage.

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of
anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
thou make them.

God's literal presence was dwelling on the Ark of the Covenant (in Ex. 25:18). It was to be a copy of what was in heaven. Also, NO ONE worshiped the Ark. The High Priest went in there once a year to see the "Shakina Glory" or the literal presence of God on the Ark, and to sacrifice to the presence, not to the Ark. This would be a correct contradiction if they were worshiping the Ark, but Ex. 20:4 is a restriction against making statues of God and things in heaven and worshiping the statures.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom.
3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

Our faith is shown through our works. If you love someone, you will sacrifice for them. Is your sacrifice motivated by trying to earn their love? No! The sacrifice is a result of the love that is already there. If you say that you love someone, and never sacrifice for them, then it is hard to believe that you do love them. There is no proof other than words.

Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of
them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)

God is saying that when you do something well, give Him the glory, so people know that you are doing it for Him. Some people do works, and then take all of the glory for themselves. That is what He is speaking of in Matthew 6. READ THE CONTEXT.

Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn
among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your possession...they
shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47;
Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

God does not necessarily support slavery. He has a good reason for everything. You also need to know the customs and manners of that day. Being a slave in the "Jewish thought" was not as bad as some thought, it was a regular career. It was like someone taking care of you. What God is referring to in Isa. 58 is the burden of sin. READ THE CONTEXT!!!

Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that
he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14;
James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto
his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num.
16:20-35)

The King James Translation is one of the worst translations of the original text. The word "repented" (as used in this text) is not that word in the original Hebrew, but is actually translated, "relented." God punishes sin, and does it in various ways. God is also all knowing (John 16:30; 21:17).

Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex.
34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

This means that the consequences and punishment of our parent's sins affects us. God does not punish for our sins, but the consequences of our sins and our punishments may well hit our children. For example, King David sinned against the Lord through adultery and murder. God said that his sin would shake up Israel and there would be no peace from that time on. Why? Because God was punishing everyone for his sin? NO! Because David's children watched him, did what he did, turned out worse than him, their sons turned out worse from watching them, etc. It was only a select number of kings that turned out different because of their own free will they chose to be different.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam
3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

The word for "evil" as translated in Isa. 45:7 is better translated (from Hebrew) "darkness." God allows evil things to happen to those who are against Him.

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14;
Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to
send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

The peace that Jesus refers to in John is peace that comes by knowing that you are saved. The peace Jesus refers to in the fact that He is calling people to believe in Him. Not everyone will support someone who believes in Jesus, and that is the conflict that He is referring to.

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Jesus is saying in John 5 that people will not believe Him if it is just him talking. Jesus is saying that to introduce John the Baptist's testimony about Him. READ THE CONTEXT! In John 8 He is saying that even though He is talking about Himself, it is true. There is no contradiction there.

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Jesus is the true judge of men, and He knows their hearts. We do not know each other in that way.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46;
I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

In the story of Jacob wrestling the angel it is God who took another form... or as many people call it, it was a theophony of God... or God appearing in another form, disguising His true glory. What the Apostle John was talking about was God in His truest form.

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

The word for God that is used in Genesis 1 is "Elohim" and it is plural. The us matches with the plurality of the name. Now, this is part of Theology Proper, or the theology of the Trinity. I prefer to say that God's nature is Triune. He is one, but three at the same time. In Numbers 13:24, the word "echad" is used. That word refers to plural things forming one single thing (or plurality in unity). Moses said, "Bring me a cluster of grapes." The "cluster" is "echad." Many grapes which form one cluster. Deuteronomy 6:4 is the great "Shema." It says: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one." The word for "one" is "echad" and God's name is used in 3 different phrases: The Lord, our God, the Lord is one." If you would like a book recommendation on this theology, I will recommend some to you.

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

Again as we say in Hermeneutics class "Context is KING!" It does not mean that Job was perfect, but that he was a good man. You are also comparing 2 different authors of books in the Bible at 2 different times (several thousands of years apart). The words were basically the same, but also had a few slight differences.

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

Mark's gospel was written to the Romans. He was using Roman time. John was writing to the Jews (primarily). He was using Jewish time. The 2 are the same times, but it's kind of like time zones, and different ways of telling the same time.

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.

Again, CONTEXT! These are 2 totally different situations. In Acts the Apostles were getting ready to be beaten for Jesus, and they were told to deny Him. We are to obey every law other than laws that ask us to go against God. In 1 Peter, we have Peter telling slaves and citizen's alike should obey their masters so that they can be a good witness to them.

Oh yes, and:

"Then he (Jesus) strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was
the Christ." Matthew 16:20

The Pharisees were ready to kill Jesus at any chance they got. He did not want them to mess up His witness to other people. There was still more for Him to do, and He did not want them to make things harder than they already were. It was not time for the world to know yet. Later in that same book (Matthew 28:19-20) Jesus instructed His disciples to tell the world, because the time had come for the message to be spread.

-JD0e

waste_elite (December 5, 2002)

"slavery in the Bible was quite humane"

you've got to be kidding me, please read that massive thing i pasted below. there is a decent portion devoted to "slavery".

kurt:
you are quick to deny the validity of most everything i post and say that there are answers to all of it, yet you refuse to give or even point me to these answers you speak of. this seems to be the most common response i get from christians and i find it very obnoxious. "i hate typing" is a copout.

"Funny how everything in the Bible makes perfect sense "

you cannot possibly be serious. nobody in the world can claim to completely understand the bible.

"That's Old Testament Law people. It's a little uh, different from New Testament law. Yep."

yeah, it is a little different. the old testament and new testament together equal the bible. there should be no discrepancies between them.

as for boba fett, i appreciate your thoroughness but there are a few things i have to say. first, you should note that the majority of the basic contradictions i posted have multiple verses there that should be also taken in to account. second, the majority of your responses i found to be very unconvincing.

i constantly found myself thinking: "you're really stretching it".

nonetheless, i have posted (pasted actually, sorry i've got papers to write) a whole new batch for you below, i can dig up plenty more if you'd like.

let me again state:
"God is not the author of confusion"

Kurt_F (December 5, 2002)

Thanks Boba. That saved me a lot of time. I really hate typing anyways.

Funny how everything in the Bible makes perfect sense and compliments itself, even though its a compilation of writings from several people over a long period of time. OH that's right, God had a hand in the making of it, it
being His word and all...do the math people.

Oh, another thing love when people do: saying that the Bible says to stone prostitutes and unfaithful wives and what not. That's Old Testament Law people. It's a little uh, different from New Testament law. Yep.

waste_elite (December 5, 2002)

OK, sorry i have to resort to cutting and pasting but you have to understand that i don't have the hours to spend typing all of this stuff out.

In Genesis are two contradictory stories of creation. In Genesis 1:20 & 21, "every living creature" is brought forth from the waters, including every winged fowl." But in 2:19 God brings forth "every beast of the field and every fowl of the air" from dry ground.
In Genesis 1:2, earth comes into existence on the first day, completely underwater. Only by the 3rd day were waters of the deep collected, and dry land formed. But in Genesis 2:4, 5, & 6, earth on the first day was dry land, unwatered.
The first story has trees made on the 3rd day and man formed 3 days later (1:12-13 and 26-31). In the second version man was made before trees (2:7, 9). If chapter 1 is true, then fowls were created before man. If chapter 2 is true, then they were created after man.
Version one teaches man was created after all beasts. The second is clear, Adam was created before beasts. (1:25,27 versus 2:7,19).
In version one, man and woman are created simultaneously (1:27) while in version two (2:7,20-22), man and woman are separate acts of creation.

In Genesis, the long discredited description of the heavens as a "firmament" is a fundamental contradiction in the Bible of the known realities of astronomy today. Biblical stars, sun and moon are all embedded "in" this firmament. (The meaning, during biblical times, of the word "firmament," was a "solid" body or orb, or the solid concentric domes holding the heavenly bodies ~ Webster's Third International Dictionary.) We are told there are waters below the firmament, and told waters are "above" it, too (1:7). Really!!

Babylonian Astronomers envisaged earth as a hollow mountain surrounded by a vast sea. Inside the earth lay the dark, dusty realm of the dead. Arching over earth is the "circle of the earth" (Isa. 40:22) or the solid firmament (Greek: solid body; firm foundation) on which moved sun, moon, planets and stars, somehow. Held above the firmament was water (for rain, to come through "windows"), and the firmament domes were supported by a ring of raised earth set in the midst of the sea. [In later times, astronomy saw the addition of more firmaments to better account for the separate motions of the moon, sun and planets. The firmaments were seen as complex rotating solid concentric domes, one within another.]
.
Why was the firmament formed in the "midst" of earth's "waters"(1:6)? Clearly, this is an image of a dome-like firmament over flat waters of a flat earth. Had earth commonly been known to be round then, the writers wouldn't need to have God set the domes in the sea, a notion likely conceived to keep seas from draining off over the "edges" or "ends" of the earth.
The Bible's scribes exactly copied the ignorant inventions of Babylonian firmament astronomy of that time, including its words and concepts of windows and doors in the firmament for rain!
"Above the firmament" (Gen. 1:7) is where the huge supply of water needed for the Flood was stored -- more than all earth's clouds could ever provide. As we read in the account of the Flood, God ended the rains using Babylonian astronomy again (Gen. 8:2): "the WINDOWS of heaven were stopped and the rain...restrained." (My emphasis)
Did God speak thus, to be understood and not confuse or mentally upset those living then? Could it really upset people then to deal with truthful astronomy -- the same people who were ready to believe in a virgin birth or a that a woman could be born from a man's rib-bone?
(NOTE: Christian scholar Saint Augustine [354-430 A.D.] and Father Lactantius, etc., continued the traditional denial of the earth's roundness, claiming rain would "fall upward" in places and that even if upside-down people could live on a globe's bottom, then they couldn't see the Savior's return in glory.)

Two contrary Genesis versions suggests at least two writers, both ignorant or unmindful of each other, and ignorant of the facts of nature and astronomy, not to mention the age of the earth.
Let any secular writer pen a book with so many contradictions (more of which will follow), on science, geology, morals or anything, and the world would plunge, as a vulture on carrion, to heap monumental scorn over the work.
As "history," the Bible is unique. In First Kings 16:6,8 the king of Israel, Baasha, dies, replaced by his son Elah during the 26th year of Asa's (King of Judah) reign. But in Second Chronicles l6:1 we read that Baasha, king of Israel, goes against Judah during Asa's 36th year.
A King dies, is buried, his son becomes King, but after a decade, the dead king leads a military adventure!
In truthful historical chronicles, dead kings stay dead, but in the Bible when a king dies, he's merely planning to pick a fight!
In Genesis 9:3: "Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat" for Noah. But Deuteronomy (14:7-21) later gives a list of animals, birds and fish that must not be eaten.
Circumcision is required (Gen.17:10), and useless (Gal. 5:2).
Abraham had two sons, Ishmael and Isaac (Gen.16:15 & 21:3) but Isaac was Abraham's "only" son? (Gen. 22:2,12 & Heb. 11:17).
In Exodus 33:20, says God, "Thou canst not see my face; for there shall be no man see me and live." God must have been mistaken, or changed: For in Genesis 32:30 Jacob sees God "face to face" and lives. The same for Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and 70 elders, who saw God, and ate and drank with him (Exodus 24:9-11). But not so, says First John 1:18: "No man hath seen God at any time."
How decide? Well, I agree with John.
God dwells "in the light which no man can approach" (1 Tim. 6:l6). But this is not true, as in First Kings 8:12 it says: "The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness."
Would literalists say I shouldn't be so "literal"? Is the "light" in which Jesus dwells "en(light)enment?" Does God remain in thick darkness but keeps this "light" of enlightenment?
But aren't we opening a Pandora's box of endless "interpretation" here? Where do we draw the line if we do that?
When the cry (Josh.10:12-13) "Sun, stand thou still" (and moon too) was uttered and carried out, the sun "stood still" in the sky, not setting.
But of course, as we all now know about astronomy, a 'setting sun' is an inaccurate archaic and figurative phrase reflecting only the illusion of a moving sun. It's created by the actual motion of a rotating earth around its own axis. In the solar system, the sun is, of course, already "still" (while the moon isn't). But, I guess God knew what Joshua "meant," and instead of quibbling over astronomical facts, He allowed the Bible writings to describe it inaccurately (using the primitive terminology of the knowledge of the time). So God magically stilled both the earth and moon (and did it without cataclysmically throwing our land and continents off into space). But then, there's that "interpretation" thing again, because the "word of God" definitely does say the sun "stood still" (implying incorrectly that it had been in motion) and not that it "appeared" to, or that the "Earth stood still." Is the Bible literal or figurative? (See also Eccl. 1:5, about "the Sun also riseth...." and Chron 16:30; Psalms 93:1 [Earth is already immovable])

Matthew quotes Jesus (19:26), "with God all things are possible." Did Matthew or Jesus forget something? In the Book of Judges (1:19) God is not almighty, as he helped rid Judah of inhabitants of the mountain, but could not drive out those in the valley "because they had chariots of iron."
This God of miracles apparently can move the largest body in the solar system, the Sun (or at least stop planet earth), in order to prolong daylight for Joshua's military revenge (or to move the sun's shadow 10 degrees backward [2 Kings 20:10-11 or Isaiah 38:7- 8]). Yet this same mover of heavens is cowed by mere horses & buggies made of iron?
I wonder what would happen if God decided to attack a "modern" 1950 Buick?
Exodus 31:I7: Like a man, God rests and can be "refreshed." Isaiah scorns such contemptible weakness.
In 40:28 he insists God, creator of the "ends of the earth, fainteth not, neither is weary." An infinite God cannot tire, nor needs to be - nor can be -- "refreshed."
Again on astronomy, the spectre of "interpretation" rises, asking us: 'what are these "ends" of the earth' quoted above? A spherical planet has no "ends." Even a flat plate or the line of a circle is "endless." The phrase "ends of the earth" then, was not figurative: We know the common belief then was that earth, very literally, did have "ends." Nowhere in the Bible is the earth described as "spherical." (See also Rev. 7:1: "...four angels standing on the four corners of the earth" & Daniel 4:10-11. Daniel's words here make little sense for a spherical earth)

GOD does not change. James 1:17 says God has "no variableness..." but then, in Jonah 3:10, God "repented" and changed his mind about smiting Nineveh's people. So what are we to think of assurances given in Numbers 23:19, which states, "God is not a man...neither the son of man, that he should repent." Yet this tireless omnipotent God himself volunteers the striking thought in Jeremiah 15:6, "I am weary with repenting."
How human that confession sounds by a presumably unchanging God who 'cannot weary' (as Isaiah wrote above), nor repent.
In Deuteronomy 4:24 "God is a consuming fire, but in John 4:1 "God is love." He's "the God of Peace" in Romans 15:33 but in Exodus 15:3, "the Lord is a man of war." (Called a "man" here? Yet not called a man in Numbers 23:19?)
God is "just and right" (Deut.32:4) yet in a mercenary manner he advises, in the dietary restrictions, that what you can't eat as unclean may be given "unto the stranger...or thou mayest sell it unto an alien." Gee, has the Better Business Bureau heard of this "just and right" commercial behavior? (Deut.l4:21)
God said (Isaiah 45:7) "I make peace and create evil," a contradiction in one holy breath!! (And we all thought, of our own evil, it was 'the devil made me do it.')
"Now go and smite Amelek and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass" (1 Sam. 15:3). That was Samuel's order for Saul originating from the Lord. Wrote one Bible commentator, M. J. Gauvin:
"Slay the old man with trembling hands and silvered hair; murder the mother who shields with her body the life of her child; rifle the cradle, and plunge the glittering sword of death through the frail form of the smiling babe ...and know, ye fiends of ruthless slaughter, ye but fulfil the command of the God whose 'mercy endureth forever'!"
"Love thy neighbor as thyself?" (Lev.l9:l8). Mass murder is again condoned in Exodus 32:27; in Deut. 2:15-16 and 34-36 and 3:2. No "just and right" God of true peace or love could command a massacre of innocents. These are the writings and contradictions in a religious human-inspired literature coming from the biases and values of an uncivilized warrior peoples. To call this the "inspired words" of a merciful, worthy Deity should be a base insult to even the meanest intelligence.
Sacrifices of helpless animals, even human sacrifices, such as of Isaac, offered by Abraham (but stopped), or of Jeptha's daughter, or the seven sons of David, are plentiful in the Bible, and are acceptable practices ordained by the Lord. See also Leviticus 27:28-29 about how humans, lands and beasts can be sacrificed. Yet elsewhere God condemns it as an abomination and is "weary to bear them." (Jer.7:22 & Is.1:11-16)
Speaking of abominations, there is the mere handling of pigskin (Lev.ll:7-8). Woe unto football players!
And woe unto those who curse their parents, for such deserve death (Lev.20:9). Yet they are enjoined to also hate mom and dad too, in order to become disciples (Luke 14:26).
Resurrections? Job 7:9 says who "goeth down to the grave shall come up no more." The Old Testament denies immortality in no uncertain terms. The New Testament proclaims it - but as an eternal agony for most of you.
All these contradictions make biblical words appear as if they are a departure from sanity - if they were the words of one consistent, unchanging being.
You'll read that children will suffer for the sins of the parents, yet elsewhere, read that no one will bear sins other than their own (Ex.20:5 vs Ezek.l8:20).
The Sabbath is required to be kept as holy, but -- each of us can make up our own minds (Ex.20:8 vs Rom.l4:5)
"Judge not, that ye be not judged' (Matt.7:l), yet others must be judged? (1Cor. 6:2-4).
There's but one allowed reason (adultery) to divorce your wife, but elsewhere, divorce can be for any reason (Matt.5:32 vs Deut.2l:l4 & 24:1-3). Note, in this Deuteronomy a divorced woman can safely and sinlessly marry again, but in Matthew, a divorced woman that remarries is guilty of adultery, which deserves death of both her and her new husband (Lev.20:10). Neat sense of fairness, eh?
If Eve was created merely from Adam's rib, it's no wonder that women are valued less than men, as in Leviticus 27:3-7, where a man's value in shekels is double that of a woman.
Or: "neither was man created for woman but woman for man" (lCor. 11:8-9).
This "Just and right" God in Exodus 21:20-21 approves a further double standard: Whereas adultery or just hitting your parents deserves death (Ex.2l:l5), a master beating a servant or maid to death with a rod shall only "be punished" in some non- lethal manner.
In Exodus 21:2I, the master can remain unpunished for beating servants daily because the servant "is his money." Similarly, throughout this chapter, is the sale and possession of human beings condoned (21:4,7).
'The Boss don't like no back-talk' is clear in Exodus 21:5-6: If a servant doesn't want to be sent away from his family (owned by the master) but says he loves them and will not leave, master can "bring him unto the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him forever."
"Just and right"? One believer wrote me the Old Testament's inspired words were meant to "mitigate or regulate" behavior and raise it to a "more humane level" than usually practiced. Gimme a break! If the Old testament isn't "static or forever," as he wrote, why doesn't he also take the stories of Genesis as equally not final nor literal factual truth? Why one and not the other?
Not only is slavery in the Old Testament, but in the New Testament, too: First Timothy 6:1,8 states those "under the yoke" (i.e. slaves) shall give "all honour" to their masters, and suggests in its context we should be grateful for scraps and rags without critique nor envy.
Again in Ephesians 6:5, obedience to masters by servants is urged to be just like obedient worship given Christ. Worship the Boss?
However, this backward morality (which is excused as too entrenched in those times for even God to overthrow completely, God preferring to moderate it instead), was not too hard for a mere mortal, Spartacus, to challenge totally. How can a non-god espouse more advanced ideals of freedom, and oppose slavery completely, when the God of all the universe could only weakly compromise those principles among his subjects?
"No evil shall happen to the just" we're told (Prov.l2:21). Yet Job, about whom God said no one else on earth was nearly as good and upright, is nevertheless handed over, by God, to Satan for torture (Job 2:3-7). The fate, also in the modern world, of good Christians and innocents under the protection of God's proverb, is horrendous.
Moses is the meekest man in the world (Num.l2:3), yet he orders the butchery of women and children in cold blood and the taking of female children, who are still virgins, to keep alive "for yourselves" under the permission of God (Num.31:17)
The Bible speaks well of liquor and also condemns it (Deut. 14:226 vs Prov.20:l).
It says avoid temptation, but welcome it too (Matt.6:l3 vs James 1:12).
The same dichromatics appear for wealth as First Timothy preaches (6:10) "love of money is the root of all evil," added to by Luke 6:24, but denied by Proverbs 10:15, and elsewhere there.
Here's more "perfect harmony" of the Bible's words: According to Luke, Christ ascended in the flesh. Paul says "Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven" (Luke 24:39-51 vs 1 Cor.15:50).
The evening of Christ's resurrection is the time of ascension for Luke, but Acts dates it 40 days after, (Luke 24:1-59 vs Acts 1:3 ). After resurrecting, Jesus was to meet the disciples, says Matthew, in Galilee; but says Luke, it was to be in Jerusalem -- merely 100 miles apart! (Matt.28:l6-17 vs Luke 24:33-36).
"I and my Father are One" (John 10:30). But, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28) and "My God, why hast thou forsaken me? (Math. 27:46). The contradictions seem as infinite as God.
Let your good deeds shine before men "that they may see your good works." So much for modesty. Then Matthew has Jesus say "Take heed that ye do not your alms before men to be seen of them." (Matt. 5:l6 vs 6:1)
Many other details of the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension are disparate. This, of course, is normal when it's different human witnesses describing any traumatic event, committing errors such as misquoting, forgetting what was said exactly or reinterpreting meaning through the biased sieve of one's own prejudices. For example: Facing Pilate, Christ spoke only two words, said Matthew. John said Christ gave a speech! (Matt. 27:11 vs John 18:34-37).
We are told repeatedly, the marvelous works found in nature, or all the universe, "require" and prove a creator's existence. But in the ultimate logical inconstancy of the Bible, it says nothing about why the greatest marvel of all needs no creator.
If God does not need to be created, what did God do before the universe? Where did God exist? Nowhere in Genesis did God create "time." Why not? Because so ubiquitous is time to us, it's "only human" to lose awareness of such a constant sensation (much as we mask out the sound of an electric fan blowing in our room or the engine's hum when we drive). Thus its need to be created failed to be recorded by human scribes who really couldn't conceive (nor notice) that it even needed to be created. [See Appendix below.]
Did God create himself out of nothingness? I am no Bible scholar, but I know this is but surface-scratching the tip of the iceberg about Bible errors and conflicts, and it already proves it a fallible human document of many inaccuracies, failures of logic, with biases and mixed motives shown by petty witnesses and superstitious, ignorant drinking buddies.
Maybe they had one too many?

waste_elite (December 4, 2002)

consider this:

"God is not the author of confusion," (I Corinthians 14:33)

if that is so, then why are there so many people that argue vehemently over the bible and what it really is and what it means? why would there be anything in the bible that is remotely ambiguous or even gives the appearance of contradiction? these things do after all cause confusion.

i'm not done

more to come

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

oops forgot one:

Should we own slaves?

-- slavery in the Bible was quite humane. being a slave meant a place to live, get food, etc. if you hit a slave and he lost a tooth, then he would go free. and as Is. 56:8 points out they were to be treated fairly. it's not at all like the slavery that took place in the southern states. it was like having servants almost.

-boba fett

now go to bed. who cares if it's early.

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

i have nothing against someone drinking alcohal in excess.....i wouldn't do it, but they can if they want, they're not hurting anyone.

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

i know i said i wouldn't do it but too bad. you got a problem with it go cry to your mommy.

this ones for Kurt F and Waste Elite.

Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)
-- Murder is completely different from capital punishment. In Ex. 32:27 God is enforcing capital punishment on those who disobeyed Him.

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)
-- God is jealous of those he loves. He doesn‚??t want people to sin and worship other gods because he loves us and knows the praise should go to Him and no one else. We are jealous of other people‚??s stuff and that is wrong. But you don‚??t want your girlfriend to go cheat on you because you love her and you are jealous of her love going to someone else and you want it for yourself cause you know that‚??s wher it should go.

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)
-- 1 Kings 22:21-22 ‚??‚?¶ until a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord saying ‚??I will entice him‚?? ‚??How?‚?? the Lord asked him. He replied, ‚??I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.‚??‚?¶‚?Ě God is asking how will He get king Ahab to go forth to Ramothgilead to fall. The spirit says that seeing as how all Ahab‚??s prophets are false prophets, he‚??ll give them false information.

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)
-- yeah you shouldn‚??t steal. The isrealites aren‚??t even robbing the egyptians in Ex. 3:22. if you read verse 21 then you see that the Isrealites will be ‚??brought into such favor with the egyptians that, when you go, you will not leave empty handed; each woman shall ASK her neighbor and any woman living in the neighbor‚??s house for jewelry of silver and gold‚?¶‚?Ě you see, the egyptians will want the isrealites gone so badly that they will give them stuff to make sure they leave.

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)
--what Isiah is saying here is not that the sabbath is iniquity but that getting rid of it is iniquity. He‚??s saying you can‚??t direspect the sabbath cause that is sin.

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.
--Ex. 20.3 you shall have no other gods before Me. ‚??God is saying in verse 4 that you shouldn‚??t make anything to replace Him. Worship Him and Him alone. In Ex. 25:18 they are making it for God and not for replacing Him with something else.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)
-- you are saved by faith. Through works you build your rewards in heaven. Think of it like transportation: heaven is a huge highway. You want to drive on it in a ferrari or on a tricycle? The more you do the more you are rewarded.

Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)
-- what he‚??s saying is don‚??t be like ‚??look at me!!! I‚??m doing something good!!!‚?Ě. He wants you to be good so people can see but be humble about it.

Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)
-- God never changes his values but he changes His response to us based on our actions. In Ex. 32:14, God repents, or, doesn‚??t do what he was going to do, because those who were to blame were punished. He won‚??t punish the innocent.

Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
-- The parents make choices and those choices leed to certain results. In this case a parent makes the wrong choises so there are bad things that come of it. But just because the children have to deal with the mess their parents made, they won‚??t be judged for their parents sins. They get judged for what they do. If they repent then all is well with them.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)
-- The word evil in Is. 45:7 means punishment. God is good to the human race but in a fallen world there is moral evil. God will sometimes bring acts of judgement for those who sin. Not every disaster is an act of judgement, it is just the fact that we live in a fallen world. That‚??s why there is a final judgement, because the inocent might die but the sinner live. In the after life the sinner will get his punishment and the innocent his reward.

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36) ‚?? If you come to Christ you will receive His peace, not as the world gives but as God gives.
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)
-- He is dealing with a different topic in Matt 10:34. He is saying that He won‚??t bring peace the world thinks of. People will oppose Jesus and wars will break out because of Him, but those who accept Him will have peace knowing that God is in control and that everything is happening because of His plan. They will be in heaven when they die.

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
-- if you loo at the two of those contexts you will see that Jesus is really saying that without the Father, His testimony is worth nothing. He can only do what the Father tells Him to do. So if His testimony was His own without the Father it would be worth nothing. Without the Father it means nothing. In 8:14 He is confronting the pharisees and knowing that this is was the Father would have Him do His testimony holds all authority. ‚??‚?¶ I know wher I have come from and where I am going, but you do no know where I come from or where I come from. You judge by human standards‚?¶ My judgement is valid for it is not I alone who judge, but I and the Father‚?Ě John 8:14-16

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.
-- In matthew 5:22 Jesus is talking about how you treat one another in personal relationships, Matthew 23:17 is part of a series of woes upon the scribes and pharisees who had misled the people and he ends by weaping for the scribes and pharisees. He‚??s not cutting them down, He wants them to turn to Him, but he is warning them about their arrogance and the doom that awaits them unless they repeat.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)
--quoting my dad‚??s thesis from his PhD: ‚??No one can see God in His essence but from time to time in the old testament He revealed Himself in human form in a mediated vision. What is revealed is true but not the whole truth.‚?Ě

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)
-- God is a one in three deal. It‚??s called the Holy Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. God says that the Trinity is something our minds cannot fathom.

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)
-- a better translation of the word perfect is blameless. Job always offered sacrifice and made sure to purify himself and his children so that they would maintain favor in the eyes of he Lord. He feared God and turned away from evil.

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"
-- John was probably using roman time and therefore the sixth hour would mean six am. When Jesus had his final trial before Pilate. The actual crucifiction at around nine am. Which Mark refers to as the third hour since he was using jewish reconning, the third hour since sunrise.

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.
-- Submit yourself to every ordinance of man so long as the ordinance is not contrary to the law of God.

Oh yes, and:

"Then he (Jesus) strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ." Matthew 16:20
-- ‚??until after his ressurection‚?Ě is how the next verse goes.

there. i replied to every single one of them. hope you're all satisfied. no go to bed.

-boba fett

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

Fuck following something. Worship yourself, not someone else, if more poeple believed in themselves rather than god the world would be a much better place.

Kurt_F (December 4, 2002)

Boba Fett:

You are right, alchohol is ok, just not in excess. That quote just seemed a little fishy to me...I'm a big fan of beer, just not in excess.

Waste:
Oh crap. Please don't be one of those people. Your so called "contradictions" cleary contradict themselves. Anyone with remote biblical knowledge can disprove all of those "contradictions". Not to be mean or anything, but I have seen people try to pull that soooo many times before, its almost funny. Im hoping JBohE or whatever his name is is up to addressing, as again, I am lazy, and typing dilligently away on some more reviews for punkbands.com, so yea. Seriously though, I so wish I could converse with you over a phone, its ridiculous to try to do this back and forth via postings. I DO have free long distance you know...I hope my offer didnt freak you out.

And to that other guy who posted earlier:
Blah, I was so waiting for someone to post something along the lines of that. "F that dude, Christians suck. They try to scare you"

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. High five man.

p.s.-Don't even get me started on Bible prophecy, it's usually a last resort...
-Kurt
a firm supporter of buttermilk biscuits.

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

And god said look after the planet, look after the planet, look after the planet, and gooood saaaid look after the planet

And man said .... fuck you!

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

"Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)"--murder is the UNLAWFUL killing of someone, so in efeect if God is master what he says is law, thus a commandment from him is deemed lawful

"Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)"--Lying to test the obediance of his followers

"Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)"--Back to that unlawful thing again

"Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-210"--justified and saved are two different words. So this is not a contradiction.

"Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)"--I belive Jesus and God are two different beings. Their both referred to as lord

"Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25"--if there were no evil there would be no good either, so this life wouldn't even be a test

Waste, I was the person who also said about another boo if you'd like to discuss further email me, t_garn@hotmail.com

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

The "Bible"? What a fucking joke. Believing some book that you weren't even alive to see made, shows just how unintelligent you little followers are.....that's what you are FOLLOWERS not leaders. You don't grasp your own destiny by it's wings, you people would rather believing a joke that is so pathetically disrespectful to yourself it sickens me. Anybody who worships a religion someone else created is a clown. It's like saying "Hey man I like your ideas, now let's go and try to make EVERYONE believe it and anyone who doesn't.....we'll scare them by telling them they are going to hell". How fucking stupid can you fucking people be!?

waste_elite (December 4, 2002)

"excessive" is the only way to drink beer

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

to Kurt F:
the Bible says to preach God's word to those who will listen. the Bible says that if the Word is not accepted where you go then you should leave and brush the dust off your sandals. you tried here and nobody cared. so why don't we all get back to reviewing the album?

oh yeah. and just because you have some old foggey conservative views doesn't mean i should have them too. the Bible never says there's anything wrong with beer, so long as you don't take excessive amounts.

"milk sucks. got beer?"
-boba fett

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

Im in the middle of finals for college, but I will answer each one of those individually, it might just take a while. I really appreciate your thorougness, as I have never been hit with a list that extensive. Generally people use the phrase the bible is full of contradictions as a cop-out. So, just give me some time, I look forward to addressing all those points.
JD0e

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

The points I stated are directly out of the bible. Each individual has a decision to accept it or not. I do, others dont. I will always have respect for the decisions of others, but will live according to my views, whether society deems them "facist" or not. I mean no disrespect, and I only debate out of good faith and love.
JD0e

waste_elite (December 4, 2002)

Should we kill?
Ex. 20:13 Thou shalt not commit murder.
Ex. 32:27 Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, put every man his sword by his side...and slay every man his brother...companion..neighbor.(See also 1 Sam. 6:19; 15:2,3; Num. 15:36)

Ex 20:5 "...for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God..." (see also Ex 34:14, Deut 4:24, Josh 24:19, and Nah 1:2)
Gal 5:19-20 "Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are...jealousy..." (See also 2 Cor 12:20)

Should we tell lies?
Ex. 20:16 Thou shalt not bear false witness.(Prov. 12:22; Rev. 21:8)
1 Kings 22:23 The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee. (II Thess. 2:11; Josh. 2:4-6 with James 2:25)

Should we steal?
Ex. 20:15 Thou shalt not steal. (Lev. 19:13)
Ex. 3:22. And ye shall spoil the Egyptians. (Ex. 12:35-36; Luke 19:29-33)

Shall we keep the Sabbath?
Ex. 20:8 Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. (Ex. 31:15; Num. 15:32,36)
Is. 1:13 The new moons and the Sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity. (John 5:16; Matt. 12:1-5)

Shall we make Graven images?
Ex. 20:4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven...earth...water. (Lev. 26:1)
EX. 25:18 And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them.

Are we "saved" through works?
Eph. 2:8,9 For by grace are ye saved through faith...not of works. (Rom. 3:20, 28; Gal. 2:16)
James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.(Matt. 19:16-21)

Should good works be seen?
Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works. (I Peter 2:12)
Matt. 6:1-4 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them...that thine alms may be in secret. (Matt. 23:5)

Should we own slaves?
Lev. 25:45-46 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy...and they shall be your posession...they shall be your bondmen forever. (Gen. 9:25; Ex. 21:2,7; Joel 3:8; Luke 12:47; Col. 3:22)
Is. 58:6 Undo the heavy burdens...break every yoke. (Matt. 23:10)

Does God change his mind?
Mal. 3:6. For I am the Lord; I change not. Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent. (Ezek. 24:14; James 1:17)
Ex. 32:14. And the Lord repented of the evil which he had thought to do unto his people. (Gen. 6:6; Jonah 3:10; Sam. 2:30-31; II Kings 20:1-6; Num. 16:20-35)

Are we punished for our parent's sins?
Ex. 20:5 For I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generations. (Ex. 34:7)
Ezek. 18:20 The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.

Is God good or evil?
Psa. 145:9. The Lord is good to all. (Deut. 32:4; James 1:13)
Is. 45:7 I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things. (Lam 3:38; Jer. 18:11; Ezek. 20:25)

Is God Peaceable?
John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you. (Luke 2:14; Acts 10:36)
Matt. 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth, I came not to send peace, but a sword. (Matt. 10:35-37; Luke 22:36)

Was Jesus trustworthy?
John 8:14 Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true.
John 5:31 If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

Shall we call people names?
Matt. 5:22 Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
Matt. 23:17 (Jesus said) Ye fools and blind.

Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 No man hath seen God at anytime. (Ex 33:20; Tim. 6:16; John 6:46; I John 4:12)
Gen. 32:30 For I have seen god face to face. (Ex. 33:11, 23; Is. 6:1; Job 42:5)

How many gods are there?
Deut. 6:4 The Lord or God is one Lord.
Gen. 1:26 And God said, let us make man in our image.(Gen. 3:22; I John 5:7)

Are we all sinners?
Rom. 3:23 For all have sinned. (Rom. 3:10; Psa.14;3)
Job 1:1 There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright. (Gen. 7:1; Luke 1:5-6)

When was Jesus crucified?
Mark 15:22 and it was the third hour, and they crucified him.
John 19:14-15 And about the sixth hour: and he saith unto the Jews, Behold your King! But they cried out...crucify him!"

Shall we obey the law?
I Peter 2:13 Submit yourself to every ordinance of man.
Acts 5:29 We ought to obey God rather than men.

Oh yes, and:

"Then he (Jesus) strictly charged the disciples to tell no one that he was the Christ." Matthew 16:20

ok bed time for real this time

waste_elite (December 4, 2002)

oh yeah, and there are in fact MANY problems and contradictions in the bible. i have pointed out several already. i don't see how you could possibly miss them if you've ever actually studied the bible.

http://www.dimensional.com/~randl/tcont.htm

waste_elite (December 4, 2002)

"Waste elite, I'm impressed with your patience, but you've still got it wrong. I feel that my post is correct and you haven't answered much to the other points"

sorry, it's kind of hard to argue every point that every person makes. i've already spent an unhealthy amount of time here writing all of this stuff down. a lot of things being thrown out are opinions, and opinions are kind of hard to argue as there is no way of disproving them.

"All I'm going to say is that there are answers to all of that, just at least read the 3 mentioned books, please."

i've read every book, yet i haven't found answers to my questions.

"why would god give life to people knowing they will never have a chance in their lifetime to accept or deny christ and thus be damned to an eternity in hell. the bible seems to state that is the case."

'Where does it say this?'

it doesn't specifically state this in the bible but it also does not say anything otherwise. as far as i'm concerned it is very much implied. it's all pretty much accept god/go to heaven or don't accept god/go to hell i don't recall ever reading of any provision god makes for people that don't hear the gospel.

"People always speak of Catholicism as being the evil of Christianity, but I have had NOTHING but horrible experiences with southern baptists"

i can understand those feelings sickboi as i have had many horrible experiences with these people as well. as far is i'm concerned, fundamentalists, baptists, and any other hardline sect hurt christianity more than help it. their faith seems to be bound in hatred, intolerance, and ignorance as opposed to love.

"If the Bible tells us how cheap women are then how come there were propheteses? How come it was a woman (ester) who saved the Jewish race from being wiped out under the influence of haman preaching his HATE to the king Xercxes? Why was it women who first discovered that Jesus was alive?"

why does it also state in the bible that woman should have no authority over man? you cannot deny the fact the men are given a much greater importance than women are in the bible.

"The bible speaks against murder. You cannot kill your son if he disobeys you, because humans do not have the right to take another humans life."

i seem to recall reading a verse in the bible that stated if a child speaks out against his father he is to be stoned. the bible also wholeheartedly supports capital punishment and war. apparently under certain circumstances, murder is ok.

". In the cases that God has called for a civilazation or society to be killed, the socieities have blatently disobeyed the commands that they have been given by God. Their deaths were the penalty for their actions, that God administered himself. Only God has the right to determine people's fate, because he created it in the first place. I do believe that this (though tough to accept) is just. God does not randomly kill people, societies have been killed in response to their actions, which they knew were a blatent rejection of God. "

first of all, i don't believe it is even possible for every single person in a society to be in direct opposition to God. so by wiping out entire civilizations at a time, innocent blood HAD to be shed. must i remind you that small children are a part of societies and as far as i'm concerned, they have not reached an age where they are capable of making a conscious decision for or against god. you can use the argument that god knows the future and these children would grow up to reject him but that leaves a question. should someone be punished for something they've never even done? second of all, i don't think it is just to wipe out an entire civilization under any grounds whatsoever, let alone for something so trivial as disobedience.

god killed people because they would not follow him, because they refused to accept his commandments and acknowledge his authortiy. this is indeed fascist.

"God gave humans life to glorify God. He must have known that mankind would betray Him, but that has been mankind's decision. God has only acted in response to mankinds actions. We are getting close to predestination here, and that is way too heavy of a topic to type about."

just stop and think about this absurdity for a while. why would this most powerful god be so insistent that we glorify him? is not pride a sin? in the bible, there is an unhealthy emphasis on praising him, glorifying him, and worshipping him. doesn't that stand in direct opposition to the qualities of meekness and humility emphasized elsewhere in the bible?

i do find it frightening to think about the fact that god created mankind obviously knowing that the vast majority of his creation would suffer in an eternity in hell. let's face it, most of the people to ever breathe on this earth were not followers of christ, and in accordance to the bible's claims, these people are in hell. it must be crowded down there.

"It is pretty amazing that an eternal fate is determined with such a shot amount of time. That is what makes time of the essence, and our decisions that much more important. Heck, 70 years if we're lucky."

it isn't amazing, it's downright disturbing. nobody deserves eternal punishment. hell is supposed to be a punishment for sin but what amount of sin can possibly warrant eternal agony? it is not just in any way whatsoever.

if god truly loved mankind, he wouldn't allow anyone to burn in hell, regardless of whether they accept or reject him. you may argue that people send themselves to hell but that just doesn't make sense. god allows hell to exist and he allows people to go to hell, and that doesn't sound like love to me. he is not powerless to stop this.

god is essentially saying, "Love me or suffer forever". does that sound like real love to you?

as far as i am concerned, that is a fatal flaw in christianity.

and i need some sleep. i will finish responding to the rest of those points tommorow, good night.

Kurt_F (December 4, 2002)

Wow, those were some serious typos. I even spelled "spelling" wrong. Isn't it ironic?

Don't you think?

Kurt_F (December 4, 2002)

Wow, JdoE, or however you say it. You did what I wouldnt because I am lazy. Right on. Thanks for spellig it out to them.

To the dude who's dad is a preacher:
Nobody is bashing Wasted Elite. Oh, and you should care about what his view is. Like I said, why would anyone in thier right mind be fine with someone who is on a path to hell? If I came across bin Laden just hanging out or something, and I spoke his language language, I would do my best to share the gospel with him. A human is a human, and hell is hell. I don't look at people with different beliefs/religions as morons, but rather people who are on a doomed path that need salvation. It's out job as Christians.

Yea um, nice beer quote by the way...way to lead by example.

Anonymous (December 4, 2002)

"Lets face it, non-Christians tend to be more accepting of other religious ideals and opinions than Christians are. Christianity teaches tolerance, care and compassion....only towards other Christians."--yep all these statements made here are very accepting of christians.

"Christains are just like racists. They believe that people who live differently than them and don't believe in their "book" go to hell. That is pretty ###### up if you ask me. Plus they aren't open minded. They drive around with #### like "soldiers of christ" on the back of their car....and then they have the nerve to cut down other religions as "violent". I don't mind religion as long as it doesn't impact me. But why would I want to listen to some guy preach his HATE over a mic!?"
"i hate the whole christian punk subgenre, and all the little ######### that associate with it. not necessarily this band, but all of the obnoxious christian "activist" bands. i hope they go to hell."
"if you are a christian and believe the bible word for word and still love this "god", you are a nazi"

"religion is dangerous"
"Damn, a lot of you kids are ####### misguided as hell."
"Religion= cult= idiocy"

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

Waste Elite,

maybe to you the Bible belittles women. If the Bible tells us how cheap women are then how come there were propheteses? How come it was a woman (ester) who saved the Jewish race from being wiped out under the influence of haman preaching his HATE to the king Xercxes? Why was it women who first discovered that Jesus was alive?

Yeah you‚??ve decided what you believe. Maybe one day you‚??ll change your mind maybe you won‚??t. I don‚??t know you so I don‚??t care. I dig religion and I‚??m a christian and my dad‚??s a preacher. So whatever. You don‚??t believe in God, you‚??re so confident that when you die you won‚??t burn in hell for the rest of forever? Good stuff. Power to you. You‚??ve heard the evidence and even studied it, that‚??s more than most people. Once again, power to you.

Power to anyone like waste elite. I don‚??t agree with him but he knows his stuff.

And no power to all these ‚??christians‚?Ě bashing him for having made a choice. It‚??s his life. Leave him alone.

‚??milk sucks. got beer?‚?Ě
-boba fett

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

The anonymous person:
AIM: WhpDFrknDo

The bible speaks against murder. You cannot kill your son if he disobeys you, because humans do not have the right to take another humans life. In the cases that God has called for a civilazation or society to be killed, the socieities have blatently disobeyed the commands that they have been given by God. Their deaths were the penalty for their actions, that God administered himself. Only God has the right to determine people's fate, because he created it in the first place. I do believe that this (though tough to accept) is just. God does not randomly kill people, societies have been killed in response to their actions, which they knew were a blatent rejection of God.

"if God knows the future, why is it that in the bible god seems to be surprised and saddened by the fact that mankind is evil."

Well, im not exactly what you are refering to, would you mind giving me an example?

"why would he give life to creatures that he knew would be evil and that he knew he would have to eventually kill."

God gave humans life to glorify God. He must have known that mankind would betray Him, but that has been mankind's decision. God has only acted in response to mankinds actions. We are getting close to predestination here, and that is way too heavy of a topic to type about. If really would like to discuss, send me an aol instant message, and we will go from there.

It is pretty amazing that an eternal fate is determined with such a shot amount of time. That is what makes time of the essence, and our decisions that much more important. Heck, 70 years if we're lucky.

"what about serial killers that have murdered dozens of people but accept jesus right before they are sentenced to death. why should they deserve an eternity of happiness."

Sin is sin, whether that is lying, killing, and being really jealous. So, a person like a serial killer who God says that he hates ("those that shed the blood of the ") has sinned in their lifetime no more than you or I. Now, that doesnt take away from the fact the a serial killer has committed sins that have justifiably heavy consequences on earth. Futhermore, if that person actually does make a life change after killing people (so many claim, I wonder how many really have) that person know is made clean through Christ. That is the entire reason that Christ came, to save the lost, not the . It is also a matter accepting the amount of power knowing God has. Knowing God can overcome and save an individual who has created the worst of sins in the eyes of society. After all, how can a created man commit an action greater than his creator.

"what about people that spend there entire lives dedicated to helping others and making the world a better place to live but happen to be atheists. why should they burn for eternity? this doesn't strike me as just."

This is a time to define just. Just in the eyes of God is rewarding those who devote their time to serving God. An atheist cannot serve God, or be in a "good standing" (bad phrase sorry) with God, because that requires faith in God through Christ. This should discourage good works, which are a critical element of Christianity. Good works do not achieve salvation though, because they alone cannot reach God, but are very commendable.

"also, do you think people that have never heard of Jesus Christ or God go to hell? that is far from just."

God will not send those who have not had a chance to know Him go to hell, because hell is a place for those that know of their opportunities to grow towards God, but choose otherwise. If one lives on a deserted island his whole life, he is not knowledgable about God to any degree whatsoever, he will not be sent to hell.

"why would god give life to people knowing they will never have a chance in their lifetime to accept or deny christ and thus be damned to an eternity in hell. the bible seems to state that is the case."

Where does it say this?

"why would god place such a high priority on missionaries and the spreading of the gospel? after all, if you've never heard of christ and you don't go to hell, why are their missionaries risking their lives every day in obscure places throughout the world dedicated to spreading the gospel?"

Because of God's love for humanity, he desires to know every person. Missionaries are in remote places spreading the gospel so those people can have a chance to know God. If they never even hear of God, then it is not just for them to go to Hell, because once again hell is a place for those that knowingly reject God.

"why would god choose to communicate differently now then from what is recorded in the bible."

He doesnt need to, because now humanity has the inspired word of God. I disagree, the bible does not have contradictions. The closest thing is when there are two accounts of the same event, and two authors have two separate recollections.

"i don't buy the fact that "well, he does speak to us through the bible". don't you think that God would have far more people dedicated to him if he was still physically speaking to people down here on earth? if his existence was undeniable?"

Yeah he would have more followers, but that is not the bottom line. There is no way of getting around it, faith is need, and is a fundamental element of Christianity. If God shows himself, that takes away the entire element of faith. God would not receive glory in a world that does not require faith, which is the entire purpose of creating us in the first place.

"why would he just limit his communication to some obscure ancient text with too many problems? by limiting himself to the scriptures, he is in a sense condemning the majority of people to hell. after all, the world is full of skeptics (god created these people to be skeptics after all, why should he punish them for it?) that are understandably unconvinced by the bible."

I disagree, God gave us a book that can easily be understood, and is flawless. Moreover, God did not create you a skeptic. God did create personalities, and different people have different characteristics, and struggle with different aspects of life. Everybody has aspects of their lives that seem impossible to overcome, and that they have a harder time dealing with than others. However, God does not create people with a cemented belief contrary to Him. Your personality is simply more driven towards skepticism, but you are perfectly capable of having belief. All humanity is. Your personality that God created is not stronger than the God that created it.

"Christianity ultimately comes down to faith. unfortunately, logic and reasoning seem to squelch any fragments of faith i might have had. that's just the way my mind works, i can't just force myself to believe something i really don't believe. it's impossible. if there is a god and he damns me to an eternity in hell for the way he created me, that is his problem. the blood is on his hands."

Christianity does come down to faith. Logic, reasoning, and Christianity are not mutually exclusive terms. Everybody doubts, but everybody can also overcome doubt, those are the traits of humanity, you are no different. The blood is not on God's has, he has given you all the tools and resources to give your life in service to Him. If you choose not to, it does not reflect God, but only a lack of faith on the part of the human.

-JD0e-

relay1112 (December 3, 2002)

Now that was a fair post. You clarified your stance and why you have the opinions that you do. I mentioned Babtists as some of the more closed-minded Christians before, and how they interpret the Bible literally. They are the ones that are opposed to homosexuality. I am mainly speaking of Catholocism.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

Sorry for all the typos. I'm at work and have to type fast.

-sickboi

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

How is it false when its my opinion of how I fee and how I've been treated? Have you ever lved in the south? What I described is a common theme and attitude amongst many southern baptists. Have you ever worried about losing a job because of your religious beliefs? Its a reality here. People always speak of Catholicism as being the evil of Christianity, but I have had NOTHING but horrible experiences with southern baptists.

What I have stated previously is not all fact, I never claimed it to be. This is a message board, I am stating my opinion, and I have been more than fair to other oposing it.

-sickboi

relay1112 (December 3, 2002)

Sorry for posting 3 times in a row, but Sickboi, you have no point in arguing here if that's all you are going to present, because just about everything you said was completely false. If Christains are so defensive in these comments, then what are non-Christains (with the exception of Waste Elite)? Incredibly vicious and unfair, just like yourself. We're not telling an entire religion/race to commit suicide, we're not the ones saying anyone who does not believe as we do should die. If you look at all the Christians' comments here, they try to dismiss that fact because they simply do not believe it.

Also, Christians, in the present, are extremely tolerant of other religions. At least we aren't suicide bombing Jews because we disagree with them (Muslims), or flying planes into buildings because we disagree with American Christians (Muslims again) or riding tanks into Palistine (Jews). We do things like this in isolated incidents, too, but keep in mind we aren't the only ones.

I think I speak for 95% of Christians when I say we do not think any other religion is automatically inferior or is destined for damnation. That is just not true. So you should be impressed with waste elite, he has presented something you have not: facts and truth.

Kurt_F (December 3, 2002)

Waste:I really do not want to debate point to point back and forth, things like that tend to get very confusing for both parties. Mmmm, typing or something. All I'm going to say is that there are answers to all of that, just at least read the 3 mentioned books, please.

Sickboi- thank you. In response to your question: Thats like saying "I have a car, why should I be told what side of the road to drive on, when to stop, etc?" It is said countess times in the Bible that the only way to God is through Jesus Christ of Nazerath, Son of Mary and Joseph (sorry, I couldn't help it, haha.) But seriously though, all I can say is read the Bible, at least the Gospels, it's not going to hurt you, and you'll have a better understanding of what you are questioning.
-Kurt

relay1112 (December 3, 2002)

And also, God does not control what we do. He is there to assist, but he doesn't control our lives. Just to clear that up, it's not like government and police.

relay1112 (December 3, 2002)

Waste elite, I'm impressed with your patience, but you've still got it wrong. I feel that my post is correct and you haven't answered much to the other points. And Christianity doesn't believe that people are EVIl, by modern definition. It means that we are born to sin, we will sin, there's no avoiding it. That doesn't mean we're evil, masturbation was technicaly a sin. The point is that Christ is supposed to cleanse our sins. But I'm not getting into that.

The guy who said that you can do a whole ton of things and not just automatically go to hell is right, if I'm not mistaken. And if the Bible doesn't say so in as many words, well, that's what I believe. I take the Bible as sort of a guide. Christians are free to interpret it, and not take everything completely literally. You take what parts of the Bible help you find God the best (yeah whatever it's religious BS but the point remains; you don't have to believe the Bible literally). Baptists may interpret the Bible literally, but not all Christians do.

Once again I see someone making the incredibly racist (or at least intolerant) and stereotyping comment "all Christians are intolerant Conservative." Completely ridiculous. You are what you hate most, embodied. You are a fascist. You are a nazi (to use the same terms others have). These comments are ripe with hypocrisy. You are so utterly ignorant that you perceive ever single Christian to be intolerant of gays. Where do you think gay rights are coming from? Where is this public outcry for legalization of same-sex marriages and such coming from? Christians. Not only Christians, but many of them are. Thousands of Christian organizations worldwide collect money for the sole purpose of helping people. Many of the large charities are Christian organizations. Christians are some of the most generous people today, and you repay them by proposing they all commit suicide. Awful, awful logic.

Saying religion is for the weak is also wrong. Sure it gives comfort for our uncertainty about death, and can help us through hard times. I'm sorry we aren't all as proud and magnificently self-sufficent as you. Point in case, my brother was diagnosed with a tumor a year ago. Our family went through a lot, and it made me feel much better to pray for his safety. What is so wrong in that? Should I not have done that to help myself cope with what I was going through? Oh, but OF COURSE I included in my prayer that all gays should die and that everyone who is not superior Aryan Christian like me should die. That's sarcasm for the idiots here.

Bottom line? Most Christians are far more tolerant than many of you here have proved yourselves to be. That doesn't apply to those who have educated opinions, like waste elite.

waste_elite (December 3, 2002)

"Everything you two just said is answered in the New Testament. Look into it."

no, everything i've said is not answered in the new testament.

"Anyways, God created us. Satan is the one that fell from good and created evil. Not God."

i find it interesting that the fall of man was due to adam and eve taking the forbidden fruit from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. apparently god thinks that knowledge is a dangerous thing. i can understand that as it is a serious threat to the Christian faith.

the bible doesn't really say Satan created evil. also, what do you consider evil? if you consider murder and cruelty evil, god is more evil than satan is.

"And there you go, saying the typical human thing of how you can't comprehend how good people go to Hell. Because society tells us otherwise. Society and the Bible are far different. People are more willing to accept the less harsher of the two. It is just. Regardless of if you help homeless shelters all your life, or murder 20 people, what comes down to it is whether or not you accept Christ. Oh yea, that's in the Bible too."

no, it is not just. murderers getting rewarded and saints being punished is not justice regardless of what hackneyed logic the bible uses.

"Another thing in the Bible: People who never hear the Gospel...thats in there too, check it out, and a lot of your comments or questions will be answered before you even have them."

no that is not specifically answered in the bible and neither are any of the other things i put forth. by all means, show me the reference if it really is in there.

"Oh and Waste Elite: The blood is on your hands because you did it to yourself. God created you with a mind, and has made you aware to his message. It's up to you to use it."

assuming god exists:
you are right, god did create me with a mind. a logical, questioning, rational, skeptical mind. i said it before, i cannot force myself to believe in such a thing. i can't ignore logic, i can't forsake knowledge, and i can't forcibly blind myself to truth. if there is a god, he is the one that made me that way and there isn't anything i can do about it. i can say i believe in christ and believe the bible but that would be a lie. you cannot force yourself to believe something you do not believe. i cannot stress that fact enough. i could say i believe that humans can breathe under water but deep down i know it's not true and i'm just lying to myself. therefore, how is it my fault that god created me in such a way to make it impossible for me to believe in such nonsense. how is that my fault? why should i be punished for the way he created me?

the blood would be on his hands.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

Kurt, first of all, thank you for your intelligent response, you seem like an actual level-headed Chrsitian. I think in basis, the whole aspect of religion is kind of absurd. Why do I need a middle-man to have a relationship with god? For something so personal as one's feelings towards a higher being, why must I be told how to worship, what to worship and so forth?

-sickboi

Kurt_F (December 3, 2002)

Everything you two just said is answered in the New Testament. Look into it.

Anyways, God created us. Satan is the one that fell from good and created evil. Not God.

And there you go, saying the typical human thing of how you can't comprehend how good people go to Hell. Because society tells us otherwise. Society and the Bible are far different. People are more willing to accept the less harsher of the two. It is just. Regardless of if you help homeless shelters all your life, or murder 20 people, what comes down to it is whether or not you accept Christ. Oh yea, that's in the Bible too.

Another thing in the Bible: People who never hear the Gospel...thats in there too, check it out, and a lot of your comments or questions will be answered before you even have them.

Sick Boi- Nope. Christians are told to treat everyone, believer or not, fairly. Ideally, non-believers are treated even better than believers.

Oh and Waste Elite: The blood is on your hands because you did it to yourself. God created you with a mind, and has made you aware to his message. It's up to you to use it. I pray that you do. And though you guys probably don't believe me, I love you. I'm not kidding. I'll be praying for you...Human lives mean SO much to me. Hell is serious buisness, I want the least amount of people as possible going there. PLEASE at least read the Book of Romans, Thesselonians, and John in the New Testament. There are a lot of things explained in there. If you don't have a Bible, there are plenty of websites. The readings won't take you all that long...try to find a version other than KJV (the reason being, all the "thou's" and "thee's" get a little confusing.)

Maybe try www.holybible.com and check out the "answers to questions" section, if you want to get right down to certain points. At least try it for me, please. I respect you very much for being fair in this.
-Kurt

waste_elite (December 3, 2002)

"I love it when people try to say the Bible says "eye for an eye" and that it degrades women. Funny thing is, thats in the Old Testament...kinda different from the New Testament. Maybe if you opened YOUR mind and maybe actually READ it and didnt base your beliefs off of what OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TOLD YOU OR ASSUMED for most of your life, you might learn something."

what makes the new testament any more valid than the old testament? after all, christ himself in the new testament seem to put i high priority on the scriptures of the old testament.

"The Christian religion is quite simple, and makes perfect sense...every comment on this website can be beaten down by any number of verses in the Bible. It answers EVERYTHING, whether you like it or not."

please enlighten me and solve all of my arguments with verses in the bible. try it if you can. i have found that the bible is its own worst enemy.

don't try to simplify christianity or the bible. a like that tactic, the more simple something is the less likely it is to have problems but let's be realistic. the bible is not simple and christianity is not simple. when you examine the teachings in the bible and the facets of christianity, it all falls apart under its own weight. there are too many problems, too many contradictions, and too many unanswered questions.

"Can any of you non-Christians really explain why we are here? The Bible can."

well let's say i believe a giant turtle that has always existed farted and "poof" existence as we know it came into being. that concept is just as credible as saying god creating everything. after all, it cannot be proven or disproven.

also, consider this. people are always saying that the world is so complex and magnificent that there had to be a creator. well, stop and consider that this "creator" would have to be infinitely more complex and magnificent than his creation. so who created him?

it is easier to believe the cosmos has always existed than it is to believe god has always existed.

"I'm sure you'd rather not try to find out what it has to say"

i know what the bible says. i have actually read the entire old and new testaments and have studied the thing for years. i have an extensive history in Christianity and i can guarantee i know much more about the bible than you do. read my posts.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

Waste, I am impressed. You know your shit and present your arguement in a clear and concise manner. You don't belittle others beliefs, rather explain yours with supoorting facts.

There is a common theme going on in this debate. Anyone supporting Christianity is very defensive, and very uneasy of anyone who is not Christian. Regardless of what you say, to be a true Christian is to believe that any non-Christian is inferior, and destined for damnation.

Lets face it, non-Christians tend to be more accepting of other religious ideals and opinions than Christians are. Christianity teaches tolerance, care and compassion....only towards other Christians.

-sickboi

waste_elite (December 3, 2002)

to the anonymous person that seems to know what he's talking about:

i'm sorry but i cannot accept the fact that it is just for god to do whatever he pleases to mankind because he gave us life. if i have a child, do i have the right to kill him simply because he doesn't listen to me? would that be just?

if God knows the future, why is it that in the bible god seems to be surprised and saddened by the fact that mankind is evil. why would he give life to creatures that he knew would be evil and that he knew he would have to eventually kill. we are getting into a debate of ethics and predestination here.

don't you think it is pretty ludicrous for an eternity of pleasure or agony be based on a short life of maybe 70 years on earth? what about serial killers that have murdered dozens of people but accept jesus right before they are sentenced to death. why should they deserve an eternity of happiness. what about people that spend there entire lives dedicated to helping others and making the world a better place to live but happen to be atheists. why should they burn for eternity? this doesn't strike me as "just".

also, do you think people that have never heard of Jesus Christ or God go to hell? that is far from just. why would god give life to people knowing they will never have a chance in their lifetime to accept or deny christ and thus be damned to an eternity in hell. the bible seems to state that is the case. why else would god place such a high priority on missionaries and the spreading of the gospel? after all, if you've never heard of christ and you don't go to hell, why are their missionaries risking their lives every day in obscure places throughout the world dedicated to spreading the gospel?

why would god choose to communicate differently now then from what is recorded in the bible. i don't buy the fact that "well, he does speak to us through the bible". don't you think that God would have far more people dedicated to him if he was still physically speaking to people down here on earth? if his existence was undeniable? why would he just limit his communication to some obscure ancient text with too many problems? by limiting himself to the scriptures, he is in a sense condemning the majority of people to hell. after all, the world is full of skeptics (god created these people to be skeptics after all, why should he punish them for it?) that are understandably unconvinced by the bible.

Christianity ultimately comes down to faith. unfortunately, logic and reasoning seem to squelch any fragments of faith i might have had. that's just the way my mind works, i can't just force myself to believe something i really don't believe. it's impossible. if there is a god and he damns me to an eternity in hell for the way he created me, that is his problem. the blood is on his hands.

Kurt_F (December 3, 2002)

Hmm. Lets clear some things up here people.

Not all Christians believe the same thing. There are these things called denominations...oh yea, Catholics aren't specifically Christian.

It would be IGNORANT to believe in a religion, and then believe that others who don't believe in it would NOT go to hell. Kind of takes the point out.

I love it when people try to say the Bible says "eye for an eye" and that it degrades women. Funny thing is, thats in the Old Testament...kinda different from the New Testament. Maybe if you opened YOUR mind and maybe actually READ it and didnt base your beliefs off of what OTHER PEOPLE HAVE TOLD YOU OR ASSUMED for most of your life, you might learn something.

The Christian religion is quite simple, and makes perfect sense...every comment on this website can be beaten down by any number of verses in the Bible. It answers EVERYTHING, whether you like it or not. The basic vibe I'm getting is that you people are to proud and self-reliant to ever allow yourself to "stoop" to being a "sheep" because they are "dumb followers". Hmm. What would sheep be with out a shepard? ALONE. Think about that. Can any of you non-Christians really explain why we are here? The Bible can.

I'm sure you'd rather not try to find out what it has to say, I mean, c'mon, Christians are "pussies", right? Besides, what would your friends think if you became one of those "religious people"? You wouldn't be cool anymore, would you? Such a pity...

There are a lot of different so called "Christians" out there. But the thing is, half of them aren't. Don't let hateful anti-gay groups, the pro-white groups, abortion clinic bombers, or any other jacked up non-Biblical groups ruin your perception of Christians. Thier so called "Christian views" are cleary wrong by Biblical standards. Sorry, but they aren't Christians. Someone truly indwelled by Christ wouldn't have all that hate.

A Christian IS: One who confesses their sins and accepts Jesus Christ as thier personal Savior, having then been indwelled by His Holy Spirit and born again (yea, theres that phrase), and then live a righteous life, full and bearing of Christ. Thats it.

A Christian is NOT: One who grows up, always believeing in a "God", and that some dude named Jesus died on a cross, but thats the extent. Church every now and then, maybe throw a $10 bill into the plate, go throught the motions, and go home, later on growing up, having kids and sticking them in a church, so that they learn some "good morals." This is pure crap, a watered down version of the Truth spoken in the Bible. These days people muster up enough once a week to go to a church, dress up and go with their familiy to be seen as "good people" Being a good person is not the ticket to Heaven. Though apparently now when some nice dude dies, who maybe went to church now and then, always kinda lukewarm about the whole "God thing", (but hey, he was a good person, always nice to people) he must now "be in a better place." Wrong.

Accepting Jesus is the only way.

This is all illustrated in the Bible. Some people will say "If God is so good, how come September 11th happened, how can good people go to Hell, blah blah blah etc." Because He is just There used to be no sin in the world, so now there is. I have no expectations of things to "go smoothly" in this wolrd due to sin. He sent His son to take the fall for every sin you will ever commit, and the events were transcribed into a book, here for your reading. It's all up to you whether to accept it or not. I'd say God is pretty nice for giving us the chance, at eternal life, none the less.

All of you seem to be following the typical human reaction of "what I don't fully understand, I insult."

The bottom line is, no matter what you've done, how bad you have been, etc. Jesus is always waiting for you to accept him, constantly knocking on the door, all you have to do is open it, and things will suddenly make much more sense.

Oh yea, I forgot, I used to be a "Christian kid" turned-athiest. I thought that since I was older, I was too smart for this and that I had it all figured out. I even wrote a book...which I can now disprove using all kinds of verses in the Bible. Kind of humbling, but so is accepting Jesus.

What are your thoughts?

p.s.- I really don't Stavesacre. Decent live, but on cd, blah....

k2snowboards311@aol.com

waste_elite (December 3, 2002)

ok, im trying hard not to get angry here, but if you are going to try to argue with me at least KNOW what you are talking about instead of bullshitting. it's really fucking obnoxious.

"DOES KING JAMES VERSION ring a bell?"

the KJV is the most accurate english translation of the bible, so yes, i have heard of it.

"Wrongly translated"

no it hasn't! god, where do you get this information from? you're just pulling it out of your ass. have you ever heard of the dead sea scrolls? a major archaelogical find a few years back. they were ancient scriptures written in the original hebrew text that matched almost IDENTICAL to what we have today. there have been other finds similar to this. trace the history and translations of the bible through history. everything is pretty well documented.

"Wrong again, We have another book of Christs teachings and testements, which is accurate and not tranlated incorrectly"

oh really? that's news to me. would you like to tell me what that book is, because i've never heard of it.

"We can all take something different out of a parable"

ok, give me ONE good quality a sheep. what does everyone think of when they think sheep: stupid, follower. if someone calls you a sheep, that is not a compliment.

"Strike Four"

i don't even know what that was supposed to mean

"You actually did only quote three words from it. And getting your info on the internet means they have no valitidty. You probably got all these bullshit arguments from a .com"

......

ok, let me try to explain this. i cut and pasted the ENTIRE 2ND DEFINITION. i didn't take anything out of context. and dictionary.com is a compilation of several dictionaries (including good ole webster) in one so it's not like it's some crazy bizarro dictionary that just makes up definitions for words you fucking moron.

and NO, i got absolutely NONE of my information from some shady .com, everything i've learned is from spending approximately 16 years in church, several years in a christian school, and by reading plenty of different books for and against christianity and on the history of the bible. so, unlike you, i know what i'm talking about.

"Some people kill and rape for pleasure, I'm not saying we should ban gays, I think they should have all the rights in the world."

thank you for taking my statement out of context. i said if what they are doing is not hurting anyone and they enjoy it, more power to em.

"I'm know If it turns out when I die that my religion is wrong, at least I can look back I know I lived a healthy lifesyle, I was charitable and did service, I hope I've been unjudgemental and forgiving. I Know that all sounded sappy but oh well."

you don't need religion to be those things.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

no onme knows what hapopens when we die. NO ONE....and NO ONE should force or shed their beliefs off onto anyone else. I mean, if you can build churches in my area then I can build anything i want anywhere. Get it....if you're free to your opinions then i am free to mine too, whether you like them or not.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

god doesn't exist.....and if he does i will kill him and the devil. no one controls me and i pity those who feel someone should. you call yourselves intelligent creatures? HA! atleast animals don't kill eachother over religions which probably aren't valid anyway. religious people need to take a long and hard look in the mirror and realize what you do and what you believe is a load.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

This is the guy who posted below relay1112. The reason I think God acted justly, is because God gave those people their lives, without God, those people would not have a life to live. The premise that God gave us life is that we obey Him, when He asks things of us. Those people lost in the flood were not doing what God asked of them, thats why genesis chapter six says that all of the people were evil, that includes all age groups. God also knows the future, and He must have determined that the infants would not do what was asked of them either.
Romans chapter three of the bible says that all humans are by nature evil. Thus creating a need to redemption, which was sent through Jesus. God gave you life too, and if you choose to not do as He asks of you, then you will meet the same fate that those people did. It is not justified for those who do what God asks of them to meet the same fate as those who do not. God does not send us to hell, we choose our own destination based on our actions.
God does not judge man directly as he did in the old testament, and he does not speak directly to people as he did then either. A human has all he/she needs to know what God asks of us. God has not changed, he just communicates in a different manner.
As far as what happens to those who never hear of God, Im not exactly sure, but here is what I reason. God wants people to recognize Him, and honor Him for what he has done for us. So, if somebody has never even heard the name of Jesus before, that person has not had an opportunity to honor God. That person would not be put in the same catagory as those people who refuse to honor God. So, I guess it depends on that individual, only God knows.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

The biggest regrets one can have in life is limiting themselves from activities due to religious beliefs. Being healthy and respectful for yourself ARE NOT religious beliefs, but very true and important beliefs in themself. But sex, and lots of it, is good for the mind & body (as long as your with a clean and hot partner, Christians seem to cut girls down bvecause they wear short skirts or have tattoos....well I say, that those girls actually HAVE bodys and the ones complaining are these fat, church old lady house wife peices of shit. I say that if you've got it show it. These are the things about religion that piss me off.....the conservative crap. Fuck conservatives....weak people, trying to put down people who got what they don't. NThe whole "you go to hell" thing is fucked as well. If someone can post a sign that say's "Praise Jesus" then I can post one that says "Fuck Alot" or "Kill Cops" or "More Sex". If it offends them well....sorry, but your stuff offends me but atleast i know you have the right to do it....so do i.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

first off everyone is generlizing christianity too much, there are different religions contained within christianity. For instanace in mine we do not believe in whoever has different beliefs than us go to Hell, we believe only those who have had a true face to face testement of God of Christ and denies them will go to Hell. People who have abortions, smoke, are homosexual, and even kill do not go to Hell.

"actually it has remained almost completely intact. archeological findings of ancient scriptures match up fairly well with what we have today."

DOES KING JAMES VERSION ring a bell?

"no, the bible has been TRANSLATED but never edited. i think you need to do some research on the history of the bible and the various translations and their sources."

Wrongly translated

"use your ####### head. the only real record of jesus' teachings is in the Bible. everything you know about christ, every thing he supposedly did, every word he supposedly spoke is recorded in the bible. the world would not know of christ without the bible, so stop trying to separate the bible from christianity."

Wrong again, We have another book of Christs teachings and testements, which is accurate and not tranlated incorrectly

"umm, yeah i realize that it is a metaphor. sheep are by nature dumb followers. get the point?"

We can all take something different out of a parable

"well, then i guess you are calling christ a liar"

Strike Four

"that wasn't just 3 words out of a whole definition, that was the entire 2nd defintion of the word fascism. god to dictionary.com."

You actually did only quote three words from it. And getting your info on the internet means they have no valitidty. You probably got all these bullshit arguments from a .com

"why should you care about what another person does for pleasure?"

Some people kill and rape for pleasure, I'm not saying we should ban gays, I think they should have all the rights in the world.

"oh yeah, and the phrase: 'hate the sin but love the sinner' is a complete and total line of bullshit. i don't know how many times i've heard that used right before Christians completely tear apart homosexuals and anyone else that doesn't match up to their 'moral superiority'"

Yet again the stereotyping. I'm know that kind of stuff happens I it pisses me off. Those are the people I cant stand is the hypocrites and "better than thou" attitudes people have. But not every Christian is like that.

If it turns out when I die that my religion is wrong, at least I can look back I know I lived a healthy lifesyle, I was charitable and did service, I hope I've been unjudgemental and forgiving. I Know that all sounded sappy but oh well.

waste_elite (December 3, 2002)

"I'm just saying have some more faith in people. They are not QUITE as inherently bad as you people think they are."

funny you say that. a major doctrine of the Christian faith is the concept that man is by nature evil. that is why we are damned to an eternity in hell unless we accept Jesus.

hey, it's your religion.

Anonymous (December 3, 2002)

Christians are also homophobes, another thing that is "different" and they fear so they try to attack it. I having nothing against gays, I like girls, they like guys....so what! Even nature has homosexuals, dogs hump male dogs all the time. If thats what you like....do it! These chirstians are just uptight conservatives, why don't they al just kill themselves so that they can go see their supposed "god" annd leave the fun peopple to live.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

Believing in "GOD" is like believing in a cop or in your government. It is the belief that someone ELSE is in control....it's for people with low self respect and dignity. Even if "GOD" does exist, he is MOST DEFINITELY your enemy. But I really doubt that there is some guy up there. No one knows what happens when you die, but why rely so much on someone else. Church seems to be for people who are TOO WEAK to deal with their own personal problems so they must reach to something that doesn't exist to feel better about themsleves. Religion is also a way to slap a nametag on something unkown because you are AFRAID of it....namely death.

waste_elite (December 2, 2002)

to the person below me, i have to disagree strongly. according to the Bible, i don't beleive God acted justly at all. he destroyed every living being on the planet. do you honestly think that everyone living on earth was pure evil? has it ever been that way? is it even possible? no. the flood would have killed children too (infants as well). how is drowning children in any way just?

also, if god never changes, why is he not killing people left and right these days?

if god is just, why would he send people to hell for not accepting him? what about people who never have the chance to even hear about god? how is it just to send them to burn for eternity.

relay1112 (December 2, 2002)

Look, I have no problem with your dislike of my beliefs, that's fine. The reason I got into this debate is statements like "anyone who thinks like that deserves to die." Anyone who thinks that an entire religion (which is actually not a true statement since not everyone necessarily believes that anyone who thinks differently is damned, they can have their own interpretation of Christianity) deserves to die is just as bad as, if not worse than them. That's genocide and that, my friend, is more fascist or nazi-like than any Christian belief.

95% of Christians are good people, and anyone who dismisses them as deserving to die simply because they believe in something you don't is so intolerant and closed-minded, I can't even see how you can think like that. The same person who says "we don't know what happens when we die so who the fuck cares" claims to hate Christians on the grounds that "all of the evil bastards believe that anyone who thinks differently from them will be damned." If you don't care about the afterlife, it is incredibly hypocritical to hate a religion because of how it perceives the what you calim to ignore.

I'm just saying have some more faith in people. They are not QUITE as inherently bad as you people think they are. Not everyone wants us warming ourselves by the pile of burning books. Don't spend your whole life being schizophrenic and paranoid about how the government wants to kill us all, rather enjoy the fact that you have the freedom to say such things. I don't want to start an entire debate, I am well educated and know all of the massive problems the US has, but at least appreciate what freedoms we have instead of getting your panties in a bunch cuz you can't burn an American flag. I understand the concepts, but instead of living in this self-confining world of hate and cynicism, try opening up just a little. You may be surprised at how much happier you become.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

To Wasted Elite. You obviously are well read on the bible, and are not some average idiot who happens to hate God for no reason. What is in the bible is just that, violence, obdience, hate. All of those things in the bible in some shape or form. Christians, just like the rest of the world are dangerous, who can, and have often been the instigators of violence. When looking at the actions of the people within a religion, christianity like all other religions is tarnished with violence, hate, and murder. Where I disagree with you is when it comes to God (Jesus, same person/being). While yes, the old testament is chalk full of violence, I do believe that the cases of violence are justified. I am not a violent person, but I have faith in God, and his judgement in his dealings with humanity. Yes, while I am significantly bothered that God has sent his judgement upon people throughout the old testament, I trust that God did that with fairness, and did so justly. Take the flood for example. Genesis, chapter 6 verse 5 says, "the lord saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time." God created the world for His glory, and for man to worship and serve God in exchange for the gift of life. Doesnt God have the right to take away the gifts that He gives, when they have been corrupted? As far as violence, Genesis 6:11-13 says that in addition to earlier motivations, the world was full of violence. God was disgusted at violence, along with wickedness, corruption, and evil. I know that this is only one example of violence in the bible, but I feel that God dealt with this situation justly. Making the assumption (based on biblical teachings) that God doesnt change, I believe that he dealt with other cases in the same justified manner.

waste_elite (December 2, 2002)

"Christianity is not in fact a set of rules..."

in the bible god says:
"if you love Me you will keep My commandments". so, yeah, if you believe the bible, it is a set of rules.

"...a relationship with the living God."

right, keep telling yourself that. don't you ever get tired of talking to yourself?

waste_elite (December 2, 2002)

"The bible we have today is probably far off from what it was when it was written originally."

actually it has remained almost completely intact. archeological findings of ancient scriptures match up fairly well with what we have today.

"Kings in europe have had it edited over and over again to their liking."

no, the bible has been TRANSLATED but never edited. i think you need to do some research on the history of the bible and the various translations and their sources.

"So in this aspect you can believe whatever parts you like and still be christian. By defintion a christian is one who believes in Christ. It says nothing of the bible."

use your fucking head. the only real record of jesus' teachings is in the Bible. everything you know about christ, every thing he supposedly did, every word he supposedly spoke is recorded in the bible. the world would not know of christ without the bible, so stop trying to separate the bible from christianity.

"First off, have you ever heard of metaphor or a parable? Thats what he is doing by refering to his believers as sheep."

umm, yeah i realize that it is a metaphor. sheep are by nature dumb followers. get the point?

in reference to christ's claims of divinity: "I don't believe their the same person "

well, then i guess you are calling christ a liar

in reference to the defenition of fascism: "Your taking a lot out of that definition by just three words of the whole definition.

that wasn't just 3 words out of a whole definition, that was the entire 2nd defintion of the word fascism. god to dictionary.com.

"Sex is for reproduction. It is pleasurable so we do it and our species survives. I dont hate homosexuals at all. But it is unnatural. We are taught to hate the sin but love the sinner."

why should you care about what another person does for pleasure? is it harmful to you in any way? how is it in any way WRONG? because it's unnatural? define natural. the only reason you believe that way is because it says it is wrong in the Bible. oh yeah, and the phrase: "hate the sin but love the sinner" is a complete and total line of bullshit. i don't know how many times i've heard that used right before Christians completely tear apart homosexuals and anyone else that doesn't match up to their "moral superiority"

in reference to the Bible's treatment of women: "Probably some kings bias showing here."

i can't even take that comment seriously, thanks for the laugh though.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

IDIOTS!Were not comparing them to nazi's, we are only calling them facists- they think people who think differently go to hell for eternity......that's fucked up and FALSE. That, My friend, is a fucked up way of thinking. If you think like that you deserve to die.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

The person below this is simply ignorant about Christianity. It's not his fault, he just assumes and knows nothing about it, if he did, he would know that Christianity is not in fact a set of rules but a relationship with the living God. Ignorance is bliss right? Never compare Christians to Nazis again.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

The bible we have today is probably far off from what it was when it was written originally. Kings in europe have had it edited over and over again to their liking. So in this aspect you can believe whatever parts you like and still be christian. By defintion a christian is one who believes in Christ. It says nothing of the bible.

"god preached war, and jesus was essentially god. make your own conclusions." I don't believe their the same person

"religion IS dangerous. look at all the hell it's unleashed on this earth. maybe you should count the millions upon millions of people killed over the course of history all in the name of god and religion. or you can choose to ignore this factor (as so many christains and religious people tend to do) and look at the damage it does psychologically. yes, psychologically. the bible refers to believers as sheep. freethinking and questioning is a threat to their system. you forfeit your own freewill and mind when you swallow this bullshit. christianity is all about control." First off, have you ever heard of metaphor or a parable? Thats what he is doing by refering to his believers as sheep.

"Fascism:
1. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

wow, that also happens to sound a lot like christianity. what do ya know?
i swear, break christianity down and it is essentially nazism." Your taking a lot out of that definition by just three words of the whole definition.

"other things to note in the bible:
1. Homosexuality is an "abomination" to god." Sex is for reproduction. It is pleasurable so we do it and our species survives. I dont hate homosexuals at all. But it is unnatural. We are taught to hate the sin but love the sinner.
"2. Women are inferior to men and should be treated as such" Probably some kings bias showing here.

waste_elite (December 2, 2002)

"you shouldn't hate a band just because they are Christian. Punk Rock was and hopefully always will be based on a group of people expressing their beliefs and initiating change. Yet somehow when a Christian does this it's wrong? Open up your fucking eyes and look at your fucking hypocrisy."

well, it's fine that these bands are "expressing their beliefs and initiating change", but when people start pushing things i don't stand for, i'm not going to support them. i don't think what they are doing is wrong, just stupid. call me a hypocrite or whatever but i'm not gonna support a band that stands for something that i am totally against.

evildeadalive (December 2, 2002)

'The hyporcisy in the punk scene amazes me sometimes...'

What does any of this conversation have to do with the punk scene? Believe it or not there are people everywhere, not just in the punk scene, who know you are you are full of shit. 'Ignorance is bliss' is right, if you are truly blissful living your life how a bunch of drunk idiots from 2000 years ago tell you to...

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

Religion= cult= idiocy

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

Damn, a lot of you kids are fucking misguided as hell. On the obvious level, you shouldn't hate a band just because they are Christian. Punk Rock was and hopefully always will be based on a group of people expressing their beliefs and initiating change. Yet somehow when a Christian does this it's wrong? Open up your fucking eyes and look at your fucking hypocrisy. I'm not saying you should become a Christian or anything like that but don't fucking chastize them for it, if you do you're no fucking better than any other racist, nazi piece of shit.

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

Ignorance is Bliss or so they say. I am responding to the comment below me which states that almost all wars stem from religion. I fail to see how George Bush's war releate to religion in the LEAST bit. It has nothing to do with it, sorry. Next, it's hard for me to grasp you combining christianity and cults as one. Next, you say that you are cutting off your bodies natural urges because of what the bible tells you? Just because your mind says that you should do something doesn't make it right. Hate, anger and violence are ALL natural urges but in no way should you sucuum to these urges. People have thier own beliefs and you should be able to respect those. The hyporcisy in the punk scene amazes me sometimes...

Anonymous (December 2, 2002)

Religion is the root of ALMOST every war or terrorist act in history. I mean look......the Crusades, the witch trials, the constant wars in the middle east, george bush, tipper gore, sept 11, waco, people who shoot abortionists. These were all differentr religions. I feel that people should CREATE their OWN ideas about what happens when they die based on THEY'RE OWN experiances and feelings, without influence from a 2000 year old cult. THe fact of all of this comes down to one thing....NO ONE TRUELY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU DIE.....SO WHY CARE NOW? SO MANY PEOPLE WASTE THEIR LIVES PREPARING FOR DEATH, IT'S REALLY SAD. WHEN YOU'RE 80 AND YOU REALIZE THAT YOU WASTED YOUR LIFE AND THAT NO ONE, NOT EVEN "JESUS" CAN CHANGE THAT YOU WILL WISH YOU DID MORE WITH YOUR LIFE. Every sunday morning wasted being yelled at by some old fool, everytime you denied your NATURAL bodily urges due to what the "bible" says, everytime you try to censor something or control it.....you will know that you wasted your life in "faith" that something happens when you die. What if nothing happens? No one knows for sure. But I'll tell you one thing, if somebody IS up there and he wants to control you, then that "god" is NOT your friend, that is your worst enemy. Either way, there are those that follow and those who create their own ideas and do what THEY want to. I personally understand that no one knows and no one should care. I'm too busy living, when your world comes to an end because your governments and your religions collided and caused war, I'm gonna be laughing because you all deserved it for being such fools.

waste_elite (December 2, 2002)

"Waste elite, you have a few points, but the rest are just wrong. The Bible is not God, it is people's interpretation of God."

let me just quote this from the Bible here: 'In the beginning was the Word and the Word was God'. argue with that.

"It is written by people, and people had their own ideas about how the religion should be. Also, take it from its time, and it is one of the most revolutionary and tolerant writings to date."

let's use some logic here...

the bible constantly states that it is directly inspired by god himself. "plenary verbal inspiration", god spoke and his words were written down by a collection of men. every word is supposedly written through direct inspiration from god. if that's the case, why would there be mistakes in the bible? why would it be tainted by culture and human error? god, after all, is timeless and is unrestrained by small things such as culture, time-periods, and consistancy.

the only conclusion is the bible was not inspired by god. it was merely a collection of writings by men on what they thought god and religion really was.

so why fucking believe it? why live a life in strict accordance to what these men wrote?

the reason i attack the bible is because the bible IS christianity. the religion would not exist without it. don't try to downplay the bible here, if you don't believe the bible, you are not a christian.

i noticed you said you don't believe everything in the bible? how can you do that? do you just pick out certain parts that sound nice and disregard all that nasty stuff? what process do you use to determine what is valid and what is invalid? i'm interested in hearing this.

i never said all christians are bad people. just misguided. what i am saying though is christianity, when broken down and examined, is most certainly a bad thing. i've already noted in several ways why that is the case in my posts below.

i also never said all christians are nazis. i said many basic principles of christianity are in fact fascist.

i pinpoint christianity because that was the religion that was first brought up, i am very familiar with it, and it seems to be the most relevant of religions in our society today.

notice earlier i said "RELIGION is dangerous". i'd probably go on about how bad islam is if i was knowledgable in it.

drewcifer (December 2, 2002)

8. The Sad Parade - 4/5 I dig this song.

2. Blind Hope - 4/5 A good solid song

3. Alice Wishlist - 4/5 I didn't like this one at first, but now it's growing on me.

8. The Sad Parade - 4/5 I dig this song

11. World to Wait - 4/5 A decent closer, but not quite perfect.

do you guys post everything that gets sent in? some quality control is definitely in order, because no one really needs to read utterly useless reviews like this, or a review of every god damn club show that sum 41 is playing.

waste_elite (December 1, 2002)

o, i'm not done yet

note these lines:

"God shares the same love for mankind"

coulda fooled me. i almost forgot to include one of my personal favorite acts of god in the bible. the flood. you know, where god deems the entire human race evil except for one family. that's right the entire human race, men, women, children, infants (never realized infants were capable of being evil). so he decides to drown them all in a worldwide flood. is that your concept of "love for mankind". if so, i'd be pretty fucking terrified if christians ruled the world.

have i proven the fact that the biblical god is evil yet? do you need to hear more? i'm looking for this wonderful mercy and longsuffering you speak of.

"His plan is to exterminate all who refuse to obey Him"

notice yet another connection to fascim

ok, im done...

for now

relay1112 (December 1, 2002)

You guys are fuckin ridiculous. Unbelievable. To see someone say they hate Christians because they "put God's Soldier stickers on the backs of their cars" and "preach over a microphone" is one of the stupidest things I've EVER heard. I know not one Christian who does either. The one with the bumper sticker is probably a hick who has no idea about Christianity. The one with the microphone is a person who doesn't is doing so for profit under the guise of religion.

Waste elite, you have a few points, but the rest are just wrong. The Bible is not God, it is people's interpretation of God. It is written by people, and people had their own ideas about how the religion should be. Also, take it from its time, and it is one of the most revolutionary and tolerant writings to date.

And to say all Christians are bad people or nazis is ludicrous. I am Christian, Catholic, and one of the most open-minded people I know. I do not believe everything in the Bible, I do not take everything the Pope says literally, and you know what? I'm in the majority. The majority of Christians in this country do not hate gays, think that anyone who believes anything but what they say is damned. We just don't think that.

Yes, Christians have been responsible for many deaths, but fuck, so have many other religions. Why don't you hate the Muslims so bad? They are the most aggressively violent religion today. Look at the entire Middle East, they're fucking animals. There's nothing wrong with the religion, but to make a point I just judged a religion by its extremists. You can't fucking do that. Based on your arguments you should be saying "FUCK MUSLIMS" here instead of "FUCK CHRISTIANS", because by percentage, far more of them are violent based on religious principles than Christians. We aren't suicide bombing anyone, we aren't flying planes anywhere. Don't mention what the US is doing because it isn't Christians.

There's no point arguing with you guys, cuz you're so caught up in your self-righteousness that you have to hate everything. But, there you go. You're ignorant. Saying all Christians are Nazis is ridiculous. Saying you hate all Christians is ridiculous. You guys are far more closed-minded than any Christians I know, and you are basically enacting the thought process which you hate so much. Anyone who is a Christian is damned.

AstroVince (December 1, 2002)

Take any basic college World History course, and then tell me that religion is good. I dare you.

waste_elite (December 1, 2002)

that was the biggest load of nonsense i've ever read, brings back childhood memories of Bible Class when i would look around and wonder if i was the only sane person in the room.

i like the first part of that. it basically said "hey, god was pretty fucked up and cruel, but it's no big deal. humanity is overrated and he's god so everything he does has to be right."

then you threw in a nice hefty dose of the over-simplified, pea-brained, right-wing, christian conservative nonsense i've heard much too often. if society was set up the way these people wanted it, we'd be living in a total police state and we'd warm ourselves by the piles of books they'd have burning in the streets.

i like how the concept of human rights was played as something evil. "It's an obsession with 'rights' - not right". well who decides what is right? god and the divine law? i've read about what god thinks is right. no thanks, cruelty, genocide, intolerance, and control through fear don't necessarily strike me as RIGHT.

god has always been at odds with the supposed "divine law". he breaks his own commandments. he is a jealous god, even though he states jealousy is wrong. he is a vengeful god even though he states revenge is wrong. he is a murderer even though he states murdering is wrong.

what do you follow? what god says or what god does?

TahoeJeff (December 1, 2002)

The image of God supposedly projected by the text of the Old Testament is one of hard-hearted disregard for human rights. By contrast, Jesus is said to have replaced his Father with loving concern for all mankind. Simple logic, however, says that 'God' can not change His basic nature! The Scriptures clearly state; "I am the LORD. I change not" (Malachi 3:6). And Jesus - who claimed to perfectly reflect the Father - is described as 'the same yesterday, today and forever' (Hebrews 13:8). With God there is 'no variableness or shadow of turning' (James 1:17).

Disregard for human rights is certainly a divine trait! 'Ethnic cleansing' began with God. Look at how He encouraged the Israelite nation to drive out the Canaanites from the land He had set aside for Israel. Look at how he commanded the extermination of the Amorites. And were the human rights of the Israelites not violated when God forced them to wander forty years in the wilderness - simply because they got scared?

What about those laws which commanded the death penalty for first degree murder? Or for adultery? Or rape? Even for violent and rebellious youth (Exodus 21:15)? God also commanded the death penalty for those who worshipped any other God but Him and who worshipped in a way He had not commanded (eg Deuteronomy 5:17ff). Nor was He comfortable with witches (Exodus 22:18) or homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13) or kidnappers (Exodus 21:16): they were to be put to death.

So - has God changed His mind about all these practices? Has God's representative, Jesus, now shown his Father to have been in gross error? And have our legislators moved on, become more caring? Are we now more compassionate than the Creator? More 'Christian'?

Let's look at 'gentle Jesus' for a moment. Caring and sharing, certainly. Loving. Generous. Peaceable. That's how the whole world should be! Yet he said he wasn't about to negate the divine Law. That Law embraced all those activities - and the death penalty - mentioned above. So he wasn't against capital punishment. .

Nor was Jesus in any way squeamish about the destiny of 'the wicked' in our midst. They will, Jesus says, be consumed in a future conflagration. Hell (Gk. gehenna) he calls it. And when God finally draws a line under His patience, His plan is to exterminate all who refuse to obey Him. All who in the final minutes of man's day remain unrepentant, all who have mistreated Christians (Matthew 25:31-46) 'will go away to everlasting punishment' (v.46). He hasn't changed - not the Father, not Jesus.

Mankind is now reaping the bitter fruit of self-righteous tampering with the divine Law. 'Human rights' trample all over sanity. It's an obsession with 'rights' - not right. The fruit? Murderers are locked up at great public expense and then released often to kill again. Never mind the agony of victim families. Vile rapists pornographers get a judicial slap on the wrist - a couple of years and then out to again exercise their perverted lusts. Never mind the ever- present physical and emotional pain of the victims. Terrorists walk the streets to plot and plot again. Perverted sex is paraded by government and populace alike as a triumph of free thought. All are handled with kid gloves to appease the tender - but distorted - conscience of the twisted libertarians who dominate Western thought.

'Sin' no longer enters the vocabulary of government or the justice system. All too often it is taboo even in the world of faith! Yet sin is at the core of all man's ills. It won't be safely dealt with by woolly liberalism! Such cozy liberalism contrary to the revealed will of God for an orderly society has brought mankind to the brink of self-destruction.

Every profession is shot through with a streak of death-dealing perversity and lack of integrity. It's a result of failure by authority to curb sin - defined in part in the New Testament as 'transgression of law'. Humanity apart from God will behave only when the big stick of law is there to restrain. Clearly, human substitutes for divine law have failed us utterly. Civilization is merely a thin veneer, soon torn apart by perverse human nature under pressure.

Now, A Different Way

Jesus, of course, presented us with a different way. Through the indwelling holy Spirit those who commit to him are guided to follow his example. That is, to submit to the divine Law - a Law 'written in our heart'.

We are to worship God in the only way He has prescribed through His weekly and annual holy days - for all else is idolatry. Christians are constrained to live honestly, peacefully and without violence. We are to lovingly express our sexuality only within heterosexual marriage. We are to avoid all contact with the occult. And to treat all mankind with generosity and concern.

[Christians as individuals do not administer the tenets of the divine Law. This is a matter God has delegated to the civil authorities. (e.g., Romans 13) It is they whom God holds responsible for maintaining law and order - and they must in the future answer for how they did it.]

But the 'Jesus way' isn't new! It's exactly what God ordered for mankind from the beginning. 'Love your neighbor' was an instruction the LORD gave to Israel through Moses (Leviticus 19:18). God, in the Old Testament is described as 'a God full of compassion and gracious, longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth' (Psalm 86:15). Can you find a better description of Jesus?

The LORD of the Old Testament and of the New is patient with us, withholding just punishment and allowing space for us to change.

However, as wise King Solomon noted: "He who is often rebuked and hardens his neck will suddenly be destroyed - and that without remedy " (Proverbs 29:1). As in the 'days of Noah' God's almost endless patience has a limit (Genesis 6)! The end-times will herald an end to God's merciful toleration of human depravity. The unrepentant among mankind will be literally destroyed by the returning King of kings, Jesus Christ, as he separates the righteous from the wicked, the obedient from the disobedient, the sheep from the goats.

In both Old and New Testament - under law and under grace - God shares the same love for mankind - and the same hatred of all that defiles mankind.

God has not - will not - change.

waste_elite (December 1, 2002)

god preached war, and jesus was essentially god. make your own conclusions.

i find it interesting to note the massive differences in the character of god in the old and new testaments. in the old, he was ruthless murderer, in the new, he's relatively nice. there are so many holes in the bible it's ridiculous. can you really pick and choose what to believe? there are so many contradictions, how do you know what to follow? stop kidding yourself.

religion IS dangerous. look at all the hell it's unleashed on this earth. maybe you should count the millions upon millions of people killed over the course of history all in the name of god and religion. or you can choose to ignore this factor (as so many christains and religious people tend to do) and look at the damage it does psychologically. yes, psychologically. the bible refers to believers as sheep. freethinking and questioning is a threat to their system. you forfeit your own freewill and mind when you swallow this bullshit. christianity is all about control.

Fascism:
1. Oppressive, dictatorial control.

wow, that also happens to sound a lot like christianity. what do ya know?
i swear, break christianity down and it is essentially nazism.

TahoeJeff, i have read the new testament (yes the entire thing). i'm not some rambling idiot, after growing up in a fundamentalist church and spending a large portion of my life in a christian school, you tend to pick up a few things.

but what about the old testament? do you just ignore it? that's what i find funny about christians, they stumble upon something devestating or threatening to their belief system and they just choose to ignore it. they don't confront it. in the bible, do you realize that god is responsible for more pain, suffering, and death than satan is?

other things to note in the bible:
1. Homosexuality is an "abomination" to god.
2. Women are inferior to men and should be treated as such

gee, what a swell religion

TahoeJeff (December 1, 2002)

fas·cism n.

1. often Fascism
1. A system of government marked by centralization of authority under a dictator, stringent socioeconomic controls, suppression of the opposition through terror and censorship, and typically a policy of belligerent nationalism and racism.
2. A political philosophy or movement based on or advocating such a system of government.
2. Oppressive, dictatorial control.
Word History: It is fitting that the name of an authoritarian political movement like Fascism, founded in 1919 by Benito Mussolini, should come from the name of a symbol of authority. The Italian name of the movement, fascismo, is derived from fascio, ‚??bundle, (political) group,‚?Ě but also refers to the movement's emblem, the fasces, a bundle of rods bound around a projecting axe-head that was carried before an ancient Roman magistrate by an attendant as a symbol of authority and power. The name of Mussolini's group of revolutionaries was soon used for similar nationalistic movements in other countries that sought to gain power through violence and ruthlessness, such as National Socialism.

Funny...fascism has nothing to do with the Bible or Christianity. Its that simple. I guess now would be the time for me to turn the other cheek...so you can kiss MY ass

Anonymous (December 1, 2002)

waste_elite, religion is not dangerous. as much as i hate a lot of christians in this world, jesus didn't preach for war. it's those kings and rulers who started the wars and killings, and the reasons were not based on what's written on the bible, it's based on their interpretation of it. not one organized major religions are based on war or greed, all their prophets preach peace. unfortunately, it's the leaders and the rich who interpret it in violent way.

that being said, i still hate all those god damn fucks christian bands.

- n'deso

Anonymous (December 1, 2002)

perhaps you should kiss my ass tahoe. Does Chirstianity stae that non believers go to hell?.....yes it does. Therefore it is facist. It's that simple.....why cant you see?

TahoeJeff (December 1, 2002)

waste elite...perhaps you should read the new testament before you speak. You will see a different view of this "god"... as you call it. I dont see the hateful "god" that you seem to see. And caling christians nazis is completely unjustifiable as you have no evidence to make that statement. Think before you speak.

Anonymous (December 1, 2002)

the only way to view things in an unbiased way is to forget all of your influences, everything you have been taught, and anything your society thinks is "right". The past few months i have quit taking influence in my opinions from anyone. Whether it be family, friends, television, country, music......and I have never seen things clearer. Everything is pretty much bullshit when you thin about it. Govcernment, religion, values. Most of it is just a way to control and censor the possibilites life has laid out in front of you. I never believed in religion to begin with, but now that I only believe in myself, the possibilities are endless. I think Henry Miller said it best. "A man without a name or a country, a man who i respect because he has absolutely nothing in common with you.....the man is myself. tonight i shall mneditate upon that which i am." I'm sure my view may seem really self centered, but I'm not bothering anyone else so fuck it. I never felt better. Just thought I'd share that with you people.

pope_schlomo (December 1, 2002)

To get off the religious topic, I'd admit it has some high spots (Witch Trial, Alice Wishlist, and Island). However it just sounds so mediocore and just sounds the same as any hardcore/nu-metal band.

Ramo

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

I'm glad my review has sparked a little debate. I'd like to say a few things about the lyrical content of this record. For those of you that don't like to hear bands sing about God, rest assured that even though some of the band members are christians, 90% of the lyrics are NOT specifically about religion. The few places in which this album is blatantly religious are not hateful or of the "your going to hell" variety. Overall, I thought the lyrics were much less preachy and more balanced than the band's previous albums.

waste_elite (November 30, 2002)

a religion that is supposedly based on love and acceptance is responsible for millions of deaths.

even more if you believe the bible. read the old testament. see if you can add up all of the people god kills or allows killed because they didn't worship him. or maybe you can count all the times he commanded his chosen people to burn and pillage nonbelievers and enslave their women and children.

if you are a christian and believe the bible word for word and still love this "god", you are a nazi.

religion is dangerous

waste_elite (November 30, 2002)

ABORTION IS HOMICIDE!

ROCK FOR LIFE!

i hate the whole christian punk subgenre, and all the little fuckfaces that associate with it. not necessarily this band, but all of the obnoxious christian "activist" bands. i hope they go to hell.

VOTE REPUBLICAN

STOP THE BABY HOLOCAUST

JESUS ROCKS!

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

Not all the members of Stavesacre are christian.

This whole post is full of bitter people making generalizations about religion, because they feel a need to make simpler concepts the they do not understand.

Before you write a religion off as irrational or just the same as all the others, look at what they claim to be true. There are huge differences.

The truth and reality of life is not altered because of the actions of "extreme" members of a religion.

Saying that christianity is wrong or messed up, because it doeses not go along with your ideals and perspective of the world, is not that intelligent of a comment. Chances are your ideals are based on what you have been taught by the particular society that you live in. Just because a religion doesnt meet your idea of the way the world should be doesnt change the fact that it could be true.
So, treat people with respect.
And this CD is pretty average.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

Greg Graffin is simply showing organized religion for what it is- ignorance. It's ok for you to do it, it's your right.....just like it is my right to burn the american flag. But do athiests believe that everyone who disagrees with their religion is going to hell? No, they dont.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

So its OK for everyone to embrace Greg Graffin's atheism like a Care Bear, but as soon as someone says, "Yes, I believe in God", they're judging us and preaching "hate"??

How is that punk open-mindedness??

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

shut up, you're all brainwashed. My point is that the "idea" of Christianity (or any organized religion) is that you feel that someone else is in control and you feel that others who dont believe in your way end up going to hell. It doesn't matter how much you try to wrap it up nicely....in the end it is hate, believing that someone else will be "damned" because they think differently than you is pure facism...sorry kiddies, the truth hurts sometimes. Plus Christians seem to want to censor everything. Religion is just like government, nationalism, racism.....it's all the same, just another way to seperate and create hate. Now will come all of the ignorant remarks from you children who were bred like dogs to believe this stuff.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

ok, lemme try and clear some stuff up for you, to the guy who thinks christians are going to take over the world and damn everyone to hell... you are nothing more than a moron, there is nothing about hate in that "book" (aka - the bible) and to the guy who said not all christians are as bad as catholics... i'm catholic, and i've been fed a lot of religious crap over the years, and i feel i have a pretty good grasp on many aspects of this religion i was baptized into before i ever had a say in if i wanted to be or not, and i myself have many problems with my religion... BUT at least i'm informed about it... not getting on the second guys case, cause for all i know, he might be catholic, my point being, just know what the hell you are talking about before you start talking, stupid fuck, yea i don't like my religion, but at least i know why...

TahoeJeff (November 30, 2002)

to the guy 3 posts down...I dont remember any christian band preaching hate. Comparing Christianity to racism is idiotic. Christians have their beliefs, but I dont ever recall discriminating against somebody because they have different beliefs than me. Most Christians are actually pretty open minded, kind people. Of couse, thats not to say that there aren't extremists who claim to be christians. But there are also extremists that claim to be muslim. And just like these people have a twisted sense of Islam, these other people have a twisted sense of Christianity. To judge an entire religion on these extremists would be ridiculous, to call an entire religion "violent", because there are a few violent people in it would be ridiculous, to say that an entire religion is close minded because you have run into a few close minded people is ridiculous, And to assume that All Stavesacre is doing is preaching hate by screaming their beliefs into a mic is ridiculous. You really should listen to the cd before you judge it.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

fuck you. you probably know nothing about catholicism except what some dumb "i hate everyone" punk told you.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

Has it ever occurred that not every Christian is exactly the same in beliefs? Christianity is quite broad, and not all of it is as bad as Catholicism.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

Christains are just like racists. They believe that people who live differently than them and don't believe in their "book" go to hell. That is pretty fucked up if you ask me. Plus they aren't open minded. They drive around with shit like "soldiers of christ" on the back of their car....and then they have the nerve to cut down other religions as "violent". I don't mind religion as long as it doesn't impact me. But why would I want to listen to some guy preach his HATE over a mic!?

maverick (November 30, 2002)

To evildeadalive-

"In the end, this is a solid album that will likely appeal to fans of Tool and AFI."

You know what that is? It's a quote from the review, telling us what the band sounds like. I hope that helps with your inquiry posted below.

-Scott

evildeadalive (November 30, 2002)

Dude, you told us absolutely nothing about this band other than they are really good. What type of music do they play might help for starters.

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

yeah i wrote the comment below and i forgot to say, ahem:

by the way, how do you know they talk about christianity? just because they are christian, it doesn't mean they sing about religious views. so stop being the fucking ignorant jackass you are and try opening your mind once in a while. i wish i knew your name so i could say fuck you, ______

Anonymous (November 30, 2002)

holy shit people. i mean really. who cares if they're christian? christians put up with all the shit that punk bands give them, so why can't u just suck it up and realize that people have opinions? you say that you dont to listen to people rant about God, but maybe we dont want to listen to people rant about how he doesnt exist.

you shouldnt boycott a band because of their religion, thats as bad as racism.

Anonymous (November 29, 2002)

they're christian?! Ahhhhh....dammit, as for those of you wondering why i care, it is because lyrics mean just as much to me as the music. So if a guy is ranting about god and his religious veiws then it's not gonna work with me. Kind of how i couldn't listen to music like screwdriver because it's fucking racist.

Anonymous (November 29, 2002)

haha yea lets make fun of him cause he's not like us....or something.....

TahoeJeff (November 29, 2002)

I like this album..its really good...so what if its a "christian" band. Good music is good music.

Anonymous (November 29, 2002)

hey this is a christian band, and this guy likes them. everyone make fun of him

Exclusive Streams

Sponsored


The Fest 13

Newest Reviews

Punknews.org Team

Other Places to Go