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Rise Against - Appeal to Reason (Cover Artwork)

Rise Against

Rise Against: Appeal to ReasonAppeal to Reason (2008)
Universal Music Group

Reviewer Rating: 3
User Rating:


Contributed by: thomas7155thomas7155
(others by this writer | submit your own)

The fifth album from the Chicago-based Rise Against, Appeal to Reason initially put me off due to the excessive amount of boring filler, but after a couple spins, it stands up better than first realized: There's Tim McIlrath's passionate vocals, as always; Joe Principe's creative basslines are back .
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The fifth album from the Chicago-based Rise Against, Appeal to Reason initially put me off due to the excessive amount of boring filler, but after a couple spins, it stands up better than first realized: There's Tim McIlrath's passionate vocals, as always; Joe Principe's creative basslines are back in full force; and even when he's not barreling away at full speed, Brandon Barnes continues to beat the living shit out of his drum kit.

The first song, "Collapse" rips, living up to the Rise Against tradition of great opening tracks. "Long Forgotten Sons," however, is a prime example of the problem that plagues roughly a third of the songs here. Sure, it's mid-paced, but Rise Against always redeemed their more boring songs with good choruses. But this one is just stale. The exact same thing happens on "From Heads Unworthy," "The Strength to Go On" and "Hairline Fracture."

"The Dirt Whispered" was the first song that really surprised me. Instead of speeding melodicore or downbeat rock, it's bouncy pop-punk, as is "Savior." The good thing is, it's not contrived. They're both heartfelt, energetic songs, like those on Revolutions Per Minute.

"Kotov Syndrome" and "Entertainment" are also a great songs, with blazing tempos and soaring harmonies. "Hero of War" is acoustic, and will probably be the next single. However, this is no "Swing Life Away." The lyrics personify a well-intentioned American soldier in a classy, intelligent manner, protesting our wars without coming off didactic or disrespectful. Honestly, it sounds like a classic in the vein of CCR. If they're really about to become huge radio hits, I can't think of a better way.

I wish the album ended with "Savior," because "Whereabouts Unknown" sounds like a wretched cross between "Amber Changing" and a Killswitch Engage song. Tim screaming: "Even together, we stand APAAAARRT!!!!" is cringeworthy. I wish this would have been an eight-song EP, really. The good songs are really good and the bad songs are really bad.

Even though I've heavily criticized it, I'm going to give this release a 6. I'm glad I got the pre-release so I could collect my thoughts on it for an honest evaluation. As always, the well-designed booklet is littered with insightful quotes. And the Blasting Room production, Chad Price backups and recycled packaging and vegetable inks are really cool. Rise Against continue to make powerful music in an ever-cheapening music industry. And this being the release that fulfills their Geffen contract, they might head back to Fat or Epitaph soon.

 

 
People who liked this also liked:
Rise Against - The Sufferer & the WitnessRise Against - Siren Song Of The Counter CultureRise Against - Revolutions Per MinuteBad Religion - The Empire Strikes FirstRancid - ... And Out Come The WolvesBad Religion - New Maps of HellRise Against - The UnravelingBad Religion - The Dissent of ManRise Against - EndgameBad Religion - Suffer

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Fine Print: The following comments are owned by whoever posted them. We are not respon sible for them in any way. Seriously.
telegraphrocks (September 12, 2013)

testing

Nomorekidsagain (July 26, 2013)

RA are always at best when they play fast. I completely second the reviewers opinion that the good songs are good and bad really bad. At least I still listen to some of the tracks, meanwhile Endgame completely disappeared from my RA rotation.

SoldOut (May 22, 2012)

It's Rise Against, so it's pretty good, Entertainment or Collapse are just kickass

devianter (December 20, 2010)

near to avril lavigne. huh

thevibe (August 17, 2010)

oh and to all the shitheads who are just dissing rise against and their recent albums, your all just a bunch of punk posers who lost touch with what punk is. listen to the sound and the lyrics, not just how loud it is

thevibe (August 17, 2010)

While its definately not RPM or even The Sufferer and the Witness, I still liked most of the tracks. I would agree that some of them are dry and even a bit generic. I would rate this as my least favorite album.
RPM
Siren Sound of the Counter Culture
Unraveling
The Sufferer and the Witness
Appeal to Reason

madeincanada422 (June 27, 2010)

I wasn't too impressed with this album. It seems more to me like a compilation of singles (Savior, Re-Education, Audience of One, Entertainment) mixed with generic tracks (Long Forgotten Sons, Heads Unworthy, Kotov Syndrome). The song that really blew me away came of of the UK version of the album. The UK version features a song called "Historia Calamitatum" instead of Elective Amnesia. No longer available on Itunes, you can still find it on youtube.

MusicSavesMySoul (April 19, 2010)

I love all of their albums:D They're one of my favorite bands. I think appeal to reason is just as amazing as their other albums, possible better. I love all the songs on it...I hope they come out with more albums like this one. Hairline Fracture is one of my favorites...the lyrics are incredibly written:P

AlexpunkFL (October 27, 2009)

bad album. they drifted away from a true punk sound.

MrFlopz (July 29, 2009)

I like every song on this album but here's the order I put the songs in, from best to worst.

Audience of One
Savior
Hero of War
Whereabout Unknown
Savior
ReEducation
Collapse
Entertainment
From Heads Unworthy
Long Forgotten Sons
The Strength to Go On
The Dirt Whispered
Hairline Fracture

RedElephant (July 12, 2009)

Revolutions Per Minute
The Unraveling
Siren Song
Sufferer
Appeal To Reason

RedElephant (July 12, 2009)

this could easily be Rise Against's worst album. still good, and better than a good half the shit being released nowadays.

johnnyamok (March 1, 2009)

the artwork is so damn horrible cliché, it hurts.

dbug (February 23, 2009)

"Revolutions" still has my best vote but I gotta hand it to these guys. Three albums later and they're still rockin'! I will definitely by their next albums!

ifgabeldiesiwilldie (February 15, 2009)

i liked this album i find the poppier songs are very good and i really hope they go on paper and plastick imagine the art amazing

Wesley_Snipes (December 27, 2008)

This band sound like Nickelback.

IAmJetBlack (October 12, 2008)

"To sum it up, Appeal To Reason is a fucking wicked album" - RiseAgainst91

I value an unbiased opinion, and must therefore buy this album immediately.

jonlz (October 12, 2008)

The Trio, the Anthem... They might be Rise's friends, but they're bad bad influences, man!

historypeats (October 11, 2008)

Wow - this is the first time in a long time that I've agreed with everything a reviewer wrote.

clamum (October 11, 2008)

"I love their new stuff, and I strongly respect Tim for his lyrics.
Maybe if you people stop and read the lyrics, and understood the actual message he is trying to get across, you wouldn't be rambling on about 'their lyrics being weak'."

Oh give me a break. The lyrics aren't anything special and some of them make me cringe because they sound like they were written by a fucking junior high kid. Typical liberal cliche lyrics.

mikexdude (October 9, 2008)

There is no Minor Threat.

telegraphrocks (October 9, 2008)

So is "Minor Threat' on the 7" the live version or STUDIO???????

beer (October 9, 2008)

I thought Rise Against was done-zo after Siren Songs. Then I was laid the fuck out by how great Sufferer was minus the two songs I'm sure everyone else didn't like..and now, I'm back to thinking they have jumped the shark. Some pretty good songs, too much filler...oh, and if you ever want to hear what it would sound like if terrible songwriting and terrible lyrics had a lovechild, check out the acoustic track on this album. I'm pretty sure I wrote that song in 3rd grade.

655321 (October 9, 2008)

Scrore is for me never liking this band

LinoleumMagazine (October 9, 2008)

That album cover is tied with Star Fucking Hipsters as worst album cover of the year. Score is for the cover.

geekonaleash (October 9, 2008)

God, this band sucks. They have a few good songs here and there, but it all ends up sounding exactly the same, and not in a good, RATM way.

Cammikazi (October 9, 2008)

I would agree with the review, good songs are good and the others r pretty mediocore. Revolutions still the best rise against album.I'll still go see them when they come 2 scotland tho since they r playin with anti-flag and flobots

louie_louie (October 9, 2008)

weak

fallingupwards84 (October 9, 2008)

just streamed all the tracks on iTunes, and while they were only 30 second samples, it really does sound THAT bad

looks like 6 stars was way too high

R3vengeTherapy (October 9, 2008)

Oh dear god, please die. Nickelback makes me ashamed to be Canadian.

Nickleback makes me ashamed to share a border with Canada. Worst band in the history of the world.

I really think some people are overreacting to how Rise Against sounds these days, and the Nickleback comments are a pretty big stretch.

And that guy who double-posted that big long comment is hilarious. I hope that person really exists.

Also, anyone who likes "The Unraveling" and doesn't own 88 Fingers Louie's "Back on the Streets" needs to wake up and go buy it immediately.

"100 Proof" might be one of the greatest songs ever written. Score is for that album.

RiseAgainst91 (October 9, 2008)

Ok, where's the love?
Appeal To Reason kicks arse, as does SSOTCC, RPM, Sufferer & Witness and The Unraveling.
Who gives a shit if Rise Against sound different to when they did back in 2001?
I love their new stuff, and I strongly respect Tim for his lyrics.
Maybe if you people stop and read the lyrics, and understood the actual message he is trying to get across, you wouldn't be rambling on about 'their lyrics being weak'.

I know that Rise Against has made a life changing impact on thousands of people's lives, so I find it very offensive that you bastards are saying that they have basically turned shit.

Rise Against honestly are the best band to hit the face of this fucking earth, and all you non-believing 'fans' of Rise Against should take a look at how you actually come across to people reading these forums.
You don't look like fans at all, but rather selfish pigs who don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.

To sum it up, Appeal To Reason is a fucking wicked album, and I can't wait for the day I see Tim, Brandon, Joe and Zach live in Sydney, Australia.

Have a good day.
Goodbye.
:)

RiseAgainst91 (October 9, 2008)

Ok, where's the love?
Appeal To Reason kicks arse, as does SSOTCC, RPM, Sufferer & Witness and The Unraveling.
Who gives a shit if Rise Against sound different to when they did back in 2001?
I love their new stuff, and I strongly respect Tim for his lyrics.
Maybe if you people stop and read the lyrics, and understood the actual message he is trying to get across, you wouldn't be rambling on about 'their lyrics being weak'.

I know that Rise Against has made a life changing impact on thousands of people's lives, so I find it very offensive that you bastards are saying that they have basically turned shit.

Rise Against honestly are the best band to hit the face of this fucking earth, and all you non-believing 'fans' of Rise Against should take a look at how you actually come across to people reading these forums.
You don't look like fans at all, but rather selfish pigs who don't have a fucking clue what they are talking about.

To sum it up, Appeal To Reason is a fucking wicked album, and I can't wait for the day I see Tim, Brandon, Joe and Zach live in Sydney, Australia.

Have a good day.
Goodbye.
:)

SilentStorms (October 9, 2008)

"Does anyone know when the Rise Against / Nickelback tour is happening? Seriously now, mid-paced this mid-tempo that...has anyone heard an English band that put out an album called Ace of Spades? Oh sorry I forgot this was a punk forum."

Oh dear god, please die. Nickelback makes me ashamed to be Canadian.

jonlz (October 8, 2008)

Does anyone know when the Rise Against / Nickelback tour is happening? Seriously now, mid-paced this mid-tempo that...has anyone heard an English band that put out an album called Ace of Spades? Oh sorry I forgot this was a punk forum.

SilentStorms (October 8, 2008)

"88 Fingers Louie quit when they realized that they were the greatest hardcore/skate/punk band of all time. Score is for them.

Yeah, 88FL were fucking awesome. The Unraveling is hard to even consider a "Rise Against" album, since it was just 88FL with Tim singing"

Agreed, I hate how Rise Against fans don't even know 88 Fingers' (if you do, holla props) but yous guys should check them out.

Drewy69 (October 8, 2008)

rise against is like my favorite band in the world, but this new album isn't so much punk as it is pop. ya

Dante3000 (October 8, 2008)

Anyone remember Jock Jams? That shit was tight.
Dah-Dat-Dah-Dat-Da-Dat-Da-Nuh-nuh-nuh-HEY! Dah-Dat-Da-dah!
-Dante

thrash unreal?


I wish "Thrash Unreal" was that good.
-Dante

cannsaw (October 8, 2008)

:'{

clamum (October 8, 2008)

"this comes off relatively weak lyrics-wise"

Doesn't surprise me. I don't really listen to them anymore, too many pathetic dumb liberal democrat lyrics that make me wanna puke.

colin (October 8, 2008)

Anyone remember Jock Jams? That shit was tight.
Dah-Dat-Dah-Dat-Da-Dat-Da-Nuh-nuh-nuh-HEY! Dah-Dat-Da-dah!
-Dante


thrash unreal?

telegraphrocks (October 8, 2008)

Back up to a 6. It sounds better when you put all your RA shit on shuffle on your mp3 player.

SEVEN-INCH QUESTION: is the version of "Minor Threat" on that bonus 7-inch live or studio recording?

envirock (October 8, 2008)

"30$ to see them live.........
need i say more."

Yes you need say more. It's 4 decently-strong bands lined up for this tour. Granted, this new album is a far cry from The Unraveling and Revolutions p.m., they still put on an incredible show.

R3vengeTherapy (October 8, 2008)

88 Fingers Louie quit when they realized that they were the greatest hardcore/skate/punk band of all time. Score is for them.

Yeah, 88FL were fucking awesome. The Unraveling is hard to even consider a "Rise Against" album, since it was just 88FL with Tim singing.

Anthony_A (October 8, 2008)

So I watched the Re-Education video on youtube and here is one of the comments.

"YAY
Rise Against is coming to my city
and imma going to there concert!! "

I realized I have lost interest in this band. I used to be pretty into them in high school but not anymore.

paulrulzdood (October 8, 2008)

"hero of war" is far from a CCR song, go listen to some CCR dude, "hero of war" is easily the worst Rise Against song i've ever heard, super trite.

overall, i find this album pretty average, especially compared to their last 3 albums, all of which I found stellar. It's hard to make 4 sick albums in a row, so give 'em a break.

they do need to step up the aggression again and they're sounding like they're starting to spin their wheels a bit ala Pennywise around "straight ahead" (ironically, their 5th album), just cranking out songs from the Rise Against machine ya know, nothing new, very formulaic. Of course, they also have the type of fanbase that would blast them if they strayed too far from the course.

so stay forumlaic by all means RA, but step it up. I'm sure there's still some more outstanding albums in them. Overall it's good, we just all know they can do better, they have and likely will.

Paul

punkengineer (October 8, 2008)

Kidz Bop > Jock Jams

Dante3000 (October 8, 2008)

Anyone remember Jock Jams? That shit was tight.
Dah-Dat-Dah-Dat-Da-Dat-Da-Nuh-nuh-nuh-HEY! Dah-Dat-Da-dah!
-Dante

friokir (October 8, 2008)

this comes off relatively weak lyrics-wise when compared to their other shit. the dirt whispered, kotov syndrome, audience of one and savior are killer songs surrounded with lots of filler.

SilentStorms (October 8, 2008)

88 Fingers Louie quit when they realized that they were the greatest hardcore/skate/punk band of all time. Score is for them.

scientistrock (October 8, 2008)

abercrombie-core?

mill83 (October 8, 2008)

There's nothing more I can say that others haven't already said. Not my favorite, but there are a few standouts in the bland. I just want that awesome speed that SSOTCC and RPM had in spades... gimme my speed!

Still looking forward to the show with Alkly, Thrice and GA. Gonna have to survive more than a few run ins with the Bro-deo, though. There will be Bro's aplenty.

punkengineer (October 8, 2008)

It's hard to say this about a band that you really like, but the album is way too long. They could have removed at least 6 or 7 of the songs and replaced them with b-sides (rise against's best songs are all b-sides) and had a very solid album. This is just ok...

TheGuwumpkis (October 8, 2008)

30$ to see them live.........
need i say more.

scientistrock (October 8, 2008)

They played "Stained Glass and Marble"

the_other_scott (October 8, 2008)

15 seems young, but i was rocking out to BR and Pennywise back in 95 when I was 12. i wouldn't have had a published review then, though.

BarleyPat (October 8, 2008)

I'd go see them live again if they stopped pretending The Unraveling (and to some extent, RPM) didn't exsist. What Unraveling song did they play the other night?

chrisss (October 8, 2008)

"And I know my writing itself sucks, but I'm only 15. Constructive criticism welcomed."

Holy shit. You were 8 when "The Unraveling" was released. I feel so fucking old.

This album is BLAND. I've forced myself to listen to it three times now and I always forget it's on. Mediocre at best ("Kotov Syndrome" is fast, at least, but I can't remember what it sounds like), unintentionally funny at worst ("hey that sounds...pretty good").

JayTee (October 8, 2008)

Thankfully, the only time I've ever seen them is when The Unravelling was the newest album.

LooseKanonYankee (October 8, 2008)

haha, my cousin is a football player, and he listens to Rise Against to get pumped up for the games

Holy_Balls (October 8, 2008)

High school football teams are stoked!

scientistrock (October 8, 2008)

Last night they played a song off of the Unraveling. This album is like a 6 right now for me. Backwards-hat-rock with a mohawk.

JayTee (October 8, 2008)

Like noone saw this coming for years and years now?

jonlz (October 8, 2008)

A phrase in the small letters in Rise's contract: "We agree to sell out and play jock rock"

R3vengeTherapy (October 8, 2008)

Good review, and I more or less completely agree with everything said. However, I didn't find much to like when it comes to "Hero of War", it just doesn't do a damn thing for me. It makes me itch for the skip button.

I think whoever said "Late 90's Bad Religion Syndrome" hit the nail on the fucking head, because I've been thinking that ever since their last record, and this pretty much seals the deal. This band is having a hard time evolving and moving in a direction that's going to set them apart in a good way. Their first three records were all great, and all slightly different, but now they're playing this game where they just don't know what kinds of songs they want to write, and it's coming off as stale. And Tim seems to really be digging for lyrics.

I still really like this band, but I'm going to have to say that if their next album is still the same old same old, I'm not going to bother.

DrGunn (October 8, 2008)

if chad price was doing lead, not back-up, vocals, i would be way more interested in this band.

lostandclowned (October 7, 2008)

Decent at worst.

mikeinflames (October 7, 2008)

jock rock at it's finest. i expect them to go on tour with nickleback very soon.
this band has shit the bed.

consider_the_ravens (October 7, 2008)

a very weak album. savior so far is the only song that really stands out for me. it just sounds like regular rise against but more bland and boring. the lyrics to hero of war are so cheesy too

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Blah, blah, 59 sound blah blah, drugmoney, blah blah, blah... seriously, though, Tim's lyrics are really not that great at all.

drugmoney (October 7, 2008)

whats with all the hate? aslong as tim's writing the lyrics there will never be a terrible rise against album..all this hate coming from people that want to suck off the gaslight anthem. now wanna talk about boring, the 59 sound fucking garbage. ill go see em live cause they kick ass live but ill make sure to not be in a hurry to show up to catch the first band.

thomas7155 (October 7, 2008)

Y'know what it is?

It's late-90s Bad Religion syndrome.

xmoshx1 (October 7, 2008)

Snore fest.. Which means it will go platinum..

sweetsugarpezz (October 7, 2008)

damn, i remember when everyone went apeshit for RPM (including myself) on the org.

i havent heard this yet, and it may be a while before i do. however, rise against is still a rad band to see live.

branden (October 7, 2008)

easily one of the worst bands ever.

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Damn. How do you italicize things?

Use these < i >... and then end it with a < / i >, but no spaces.

thomas7155 (October 7, 2008)

Thanks a ton for posting this!!

Although I think Jordan at Pastepunk.com said what I was trying to say: They're trying to appeal to too many different factions of their fanbase at the same time, so that, while the individual (Good) songs aren't watered down, the album as a whole is wimpy.

And I know my writing itself sucks, but I'm only 15. Constructive criticism welcomed.

Trauma16 (October 7, 2008)

Like it, but don't think i'll ever love it. Much like a step-child.

RoyalWithCheese (October 7, 2008)

Not what I had in mind but I still like it

BarleyPat (October 7, 2008)

Hero of War is way worse than Swing Life Away

maladroit (October 7, 2008)

Completely disappointing.

If I wanted to listen to something like this, but better, I'd listen to the last record.

If I wanted to listen to something like the last record, but better, I'd listen to Siren Song.

If I wanted to listen to something like Siren Song, but better, I'd listen to RPM.

What the fuck is this band doing.

Nap (October 7, 2008)

Really nothing special!!!

chickswithdicks (October 7, 2008)

holy shit dante said something funny.

this album fails on so many levels. tim needs to devote more time to the killing tree.


holy shit colin made a good suggestion.

loose72 (October 7, 2008)

Totally agree with the review, I am Still in shock about Denis leaving Zero to Sixty...A big 4 for this of the worst of the RA releases...

d_bag (October 7, 2008)

wait, nevermind. just figured that one out for myself.

d_bag (October 7, 2008)

why is the tracklisting for this album different on their myspace player? which is the one you get if you buy the actual cd?

jacknife737 (October 7, 2008)

meh, i like it.

telegraphrocks (October 7, 2008)

Damn. How do you italicize things?

telegraphrocks (October 7, 2008)

[i] Eh, back to a 5.

Yeah, it's clearly not as epic as Star Fucking Hipsters... [i]

Damn straight. 'Until We're Dead' is fucking gold.

Dante3000 (October 7, 2008)

holy shit dante said something funny.

1 out of 5,000....works for me.
-Dante

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Eh, back to a 5.

Yeah, it's clearly not as epic as Star Fucking Hipsters...

notfeelingcreative (October 7, 2008)

I was contemplating buying this today, but after listening to the stream a few more times I decided against it. I have to eat too.

telegraphrocks (October 7, 2008)

So I just watched the video for "Re-Education"... score's for Tim's eyes.

telegraphrocks (October 7, 2008)

Eh, back to a 5.

colin (October 7, 2008)

Oh I'm sorry. It appears someone spilled all their freshman year art school symbolism all over the cover...how embarrassing.

holy shit dante said something funny.

this album fails on so many levels. tim needs to devote more time to the killing tree.

fallingupwards84 (October 7, 2008)

shit sucks, and so does the score

telegraphrocks (October 7, 2008)

Shit, this actually went up for me in the last hour! However, I don't see it going higher than a 6.

Good songs: "Collapse", "Kotov Syndrome", "The Dirt Whispered", "Entertainment", "Savior", and the rest are just kind of bland / boring. Not "bad", just not too good.

Worst album from them yet, but still necessarily isn't bad.

Dante3000 (October 7, 2008)

Oh I'm sorry. It appears someone spilled all their freshman year art school symbolism all over the cover...how embarrassing.
-Dante

wyzo (October 7, 2008)

I have mixed thoughts on this record.

After being initially turned off by Rise Against's first major label record, It took some time for me to even give Sufferer and the witness a spin. Which I ended up liking very much, slick, but honestly a like a slick socal punk song as long as its done well.

So I think this one is better than the first major label LP they did, which I can't get into at all. It isn't in terms of individual songs against individual songs better than Sufferer and the witness, but as an album, it is consistent.

I would like to see a different producer for the next one just for variety.

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Score's for the obligatory slow song.

I am so disappointed by these guys.

mattramone (October 7, 2008)

Gotta suck trying to live down an album that's five years old.

misterspike (October 7, 2008)

I loved Sufferer, but this sounds like the watered-down b-sides that didnt' make the cut two years ago. Not that it's a bad record, I was just hoping for more.

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Also why cant they make a super fast ripping album with all the songs the speed, of "state of the union"? Seriously a loud, fast angry album is what this band needs more than ever. I think it's time to step out of the blasting room and record with someone who will kick them in the ass.

Hey! Leave Bill Stevenson out of this! He recorded A Wilhelm Scream and they're really fast; it's the band, not the recording studio.

Also, the guitar on this album is unbelievably boring. Way too generic, at least Chris Chasse had some interesting melodic approaches.

mrdogg45 (October 7, 2008)

Considering how shitty The Sufferer & The Witness was, this sounds like a breath of fresh air to me. Closest they've come to Revolutions in years.

ak3punk (October 7, 2008)

It's good but not great, alot of the songs sound like b-sides. The songs that are good are awesome, but like he said the songs that suck most certainly do. Some of the songs just fall flat and have no bite to them at all.

Also why cant they make a super fast ripping album with all the songs the speed, of "state of the union"? Seriously a loud, fast angry album is what this band needs more than ever. I think it's time to step out of the blasting room and record with someone who will kick them in the ass.

TheMarc (October 7, 2008)

Fair review, and I completely agree. These guys need to crank the aggression back up several notches.

mikexdude (October 7, 2008)

Booooooorrrrrrriiiinnnngggggg....

Sufferer and the Witness was way better.

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